The Prodigal Summer Series Part 3: Life After Leaving
Welcome to STRONGWILLED, the multimedia project aimed at helping survivors of religious authoritarian parenting methods develop autonomy and find solidarity.
This episode we heard from listeners about what they’ve found most rewarding about being leaving either dysfunctional families, the faith they were raised with – or both. We also talk about what we wished we’d known when we were leaving.
TW: physical abuse, anti-queer rhetoric
Thank you so much to our community for sharing their experiences! We appreciate your continual support, and your input on this episode!
You can read more about religious authoritarian parenting and also find the transcript for this podcast at strongwilledproject.com
You can join our patreon community or at ghost to support this podcast and listen to our series about the developmental impacts of growing up in a high control religion, as well as join our discord community.
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TRANSCRIPT
Life After Leaving
DL: Hello, and welcome to the STRONGWILLED Podcast. I'm D.L. Mayfield, and with me is the gorgeous, the generous, the prodigal...
Krispin: Krispin Mayfield.
DL: Okay. I wanted to fluster you. Did I?
Krispin: No, you just reminded me that we recently watched A Knight's Tale.
DL: A Knight's Tale? Oh, yeah. I was, uh... I'm Paul Bettanying it up.
Krispin: Uh-huh. Yeah.
DL: Krispin loves A Knight's Tale, everyone. Here's a lore drop for you.
Krispin: Because..
DL: Because why?
Krispin: When I was a teenager, they talked about their love stories, and – you didn't even want me to go here.
DL: Oh, God.
Krispin: And the one guy's like, "Yeah, I remember we made love and then we'd sit bare, like, naked in front of the fire," and I was like, "That sounds amazing."
DL: That's always been your goal.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Always been your dream. I like Chaucer's butt in that movie. So we each had our own things. Wow, we're already way off track! Today we are doing part three in our summer series, our Prodigal Summer series, and today we're talking about Life After Leaving.
It's going to be a bit more jaunty than the other two episodes. We've dealt with the estranged parent community and the advice they're getting, so we don't have to do trigger warnings too much about that, although it might be peppered in here because we're going to talk about a few things before we get into it.
But we just thought it would be really important, after spending this time talking about the reality that estrangement is happening quite a bit in religious authoritarian communities, in high control religious communities in the United States, and honestly, the mainstream media is not covering it well.
Krispin: Yes.
DL: To put it lightly.
Krispin: Right.
DL: So we're having this conversation here. It is happening, and for the people who leave or set boundaries or start to pursue their own path, we want to talk a bit about what life is like after you do that. So I have a few caveats I need to talk about before we can get into this episode.
But just so people know, this is going to be a positive, a strengths-based episode, okay, on what happens to you after you set boundaries with people, institutions, and religions that are designed to control you.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: So, any caveats you want to say before we get into this?
Krispin: Yeah. Whenever I think about this conversation, I think about the variety of situations that people are in. And so I think we're really speaking generally, and we're speaking from a place where we're assuming that there aren't, like, major financial power differences or, I'm thinking about things like disability, or socioeconomic considerations where sometimes people don't have the choice, about cutting off relationships with parents.
DL: Right.
Krispin: So I want to give so much space for that. That is a really important conversation. But if we're looking at, like if that's not a consideration, that's the conversation that we're having now.
DL: Yeah. And what we've always said when we talk about estrangement is that it's such a wide spectrum. And everybody has the ability to make choices to be private in your own brain and your own body. You know what I mean?
Krispin: Right. Yes.
DL: So I think that's the other thing people get really hung up on. They think when we're talking about living your best prodigal life, they are assuming we mean going no contact. Which that's just one.
Krispin: Right.
DL: That's one way of setting boundaries, and everybody has to make that choice for themself.
Krispin: And I would say that for some folks, that feels like what setting boundaries is, because, you know, like we just think like, "I could never do that." Like, to set boundaries would mean ending the relationship.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Which may or may not be true, but that is their choice. And actually, that's something, you know, I follow, some estrangement accounts. And Whitney Goodwin talks about this, where a lot of parents will say, "My kid cut me off." But really what happened was, my kid set boundaries and then I stopped talking to them. And they're like, "They cut me off."
DL: Yes. Right.
Krispin: And it's like, that's not, not actually what happened. So just recognizing, even maybe taking a moment to think about in your brain, when you think about low contact or no contact, does it feel like low contact feels like an option, or does your brain kinda jump ahead to, well, that would mean the same as no contact? Because they are different, but it can sort of hit the same.
DL: Yeah. And I think also because both you and I are basically no contact with our parents, people might also assume that we're telling everyone to do that, which we're definitely not. Because this is about autonomy. This is about you making your own decisions for what is best for your life. And I think the prodigal narrative, why we're honing in on it this summer, is because so many of us are realizing the central message of Christianity that was given to us was that our life was not our own, right? Our life belonged to God.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: It belonged to our parents. And it belongs to our church and to our conservative government, you know. To capitalism.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: So it's all that. Another thing people have been a little confused about is, are we talking about prodigals leaving Christianity or leaving family? And I'm like, both. You know?
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
DL: There are some people listening who are still Christian, there are some people who aren't. Like, the religion is sort of tied up into this, but again, it's such a spectrum and it changes for each individual. So if this episode is going to annoy you, if you're in a really difficult place and you don't want to hear positives of what happens after setting boundaries, we totally respect that, but we are telling you that's what we're going to be focusing on today is the positives.
Of course, there are hard parts about setting boundaries, and you can listen to some of our older episodes, right? Because we want to make a plug for that really quick.
Krispin: Yeah, right. We did a Patreon only where we talked about me being no contact for 10 years. You had been no contact for a couple of years, so reflecting on that and talking about the difficult process that was.
DL: Yeah, and we also have a podcast from last year called How to Set Boundaries in a Religious Authoritarian Family.
Krispin: We also have, if you look up “Krispin's story” and “DL's story” that also gives some of the picture of our experiences.
DL: Yeah. Because it's hard. As we talk about in those episodes, this brings up attachment trauma. And you can get into really intense emotional spaces, as a part of this process, and we don't want to pretend like that doesn't happen.
Krispin: Right. Uh-huh.
And it's not all easy, as we'll even hear in some of the comments I'm going to talk about. But there's just so much good that comes with setting boundaries and living your own life, that we thought, "Hey, let's do an episode about it."
DL: So! I think I'm done. I think I said all of my caveats.
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: Are you ready to go, Krispin?
Krispin: Yep. Mm-hmm.
DL: Okay. So, we didn't even know when we decided to do this summer series, like how much people would start to talk about estrangement this summer, and I knew it was reaching peak levels when Katie Miller, Stephen Miller's wife, started tweeting about this. Because of course she's on X, you know what I mean?
Krispin: Of course.
DL: First of all, Stephen Miller is my nemesis. Has been for a long time. I have SO many nemeses. Like, I have to have a plural, you know what I mean?
Krispin: Yes.
DL: But Katie Miller, she was taught... She decided to jump into this, and guess what she brought up? The fall of the Roman Empire. And estrangement leading to the fall of the Roman Empire. Now, growing up, you know, in an evangelical home, did you hear about the fall of the Roman Empire?
Krispin: Yes.
DL: What did you hear about it?
Krispin: I heard that it was homosexuality that led to the fall of the Roman Empire.
DL: As did I. It was homosexuality. That is what my mom taught me.
Krispin: So is the fall of the Roman Empire just the thing that conservatives use for whatever is upsetting them in the moment?
DL: Yes. Those were some of the amazing responses to Katie Miller's tweets. It's like, well, as long as it's not, like, corruption and spending tons of money on war, we're good to go, Katie.
Krispin: Right.
DL: It just so happens the thing that Katie Miller is obsessed with is what caused the fall of the Roman Empire. So that's fascinating. But yeah, I wanted to ask you because I was like, no, I thought it was homosexuality, because that's what I was taught.
Krispin: Right? Yes. Also, why are they so obsessed with the fall of the Roman Empire? Because Rome had all the Roman gods, and then it fell, and then it became Catholic. Right?
DL: Oh my God, Krispin. You are spot on because I think they like to say the fall of the Roman Empire just to scare people into voting conservative.
Krispin: Uh-huh.
DL: But the truth is the Roman Empire just turned into the Catholic Church and we're all living under that now. You know what I mean? Christianity. So yeah, I mean, that's, that's what I think. I love that you went there.
Krispin: Right. Yeah. Neither of us are particular experts on this period of history, so if there's a history nerd out there that wants to enlighten us, please send us a message.
DL: No, I’m right. Don't message us, though, if you think it's homosexuality because we've heard those arguments before. So, but no, Katie Miller starts off her post by saying this. She's talking about this Wall Street Journal article, which we'll talk about in a second, but she says that this article is talking about the rise of parental estrangement.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And then she says, "So therapy has become incredibly dangerous for societal bonds because a lot of estranged parents think that therapy is causing their adult children to cut off contact." So according to Katie Miller, she says “One-third of parents blame a therapist's influence for their children not talking to them.”
And so she says, "This is how countries weaken and fall apart. Rome didn't fall primarily because of barbarians at the gates. It fell because loyalty, duty, bonds, and the birth rate collapsed." Oh, gosh. Had to get in that white supremacist shit.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: "When the Romans lost the traditional family, its societal structure that fostered mutual support fell."
So then she says, "Therapists are creating a mental health crisis by actively encouraging patients to cut off their families. When communities are no longer connected, they become unrecognizable to their people." I want to hear your thoughts on this.
Krispin: I mean, first I gotta start with this stat of, a third of parents who are estranged, say that it's because their therapist told them to.
DL: Right. Yeah.
Krispin: Okay, so first of all, this is not a statistic that should be used because you're not actually asking the adult children.
DL: Well, they don't matter, Krispin.
Krispin: Which is indicative of the whole problem.
DL: Exactly.
Krispin: Right? You're asking the parents who don't seem to have enough emotional intelligence skills to repair with their children about why this is happening? And then you're quoting that?
DL: Yeah. I mean, I so agree with what you're saying, but to me it makes perfect sense why these parents would blame a therapist. A third party. Right?
Krispin: Right. Yeah. Totally. Well, yeah, because really they're not wanting to face the reality that their child has chosen to go no contact with them.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: So they will blame therapists, you know, a lot of times it's blaming a partner. Right?
DL: Yes. Yes, yes, yes.
Krispin: As you've experienced. Or, like, culture. You know, culture today. You know, it's always like someone else has influenced them.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Right? Which, you know, one way to look at that is just this belief that your child doesn't actually have agency and that you told them what to do a lot of their lives, and now they're being told what to do by other people.
DL: Yeah. We talked about this in some of our other posts, right?
Krispin: Right. Yeah.
DL: Like how in these communities the adult children never are seen as having agency and autonomy, and this is totally a part of that.
Krispin: Exactly.
DL: The therapist manipulated them. But you're a therapist. How does this strike you?
Krispin: Yeah. I would say, I never want to underplay the amount of influence a therapist has, because there is a power differential there.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: That being said, if getting people out of toxic or abusive or dysfunctional relationships was as easy as me telling them to I mean, you know, any therapist? Like, think about all the people that are in therapy that are in dysfunctional relationships. We don't have that much power.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: You know? Like, think about abusive romantic relationships, intimate relationships.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Maybe you don't know. Maybe you're listening and you're like, "Oh, I..."No. It's like really, like so many in the therapy field, we're just like, "Yeah, how do we support people?" Because they get in these dysfunctional relationships.
DL: Yeah
Krispin: And the power there tends to be so strong, it's really hard. You know, it's not just like, "Oh, I'm telling you to leave your parents."
What I do think is happening is people have a space to process their feelings about their relationships.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And then they have time to reflect on, like, do I want this relationship or not?
DL: Yeah. I mean, and this is why I am not a therapist, is because I would want to tell people exactly what to do, and that is not what therapy is.
Krispin: Right.
DL: I started a podcast. No, I'm just kidding. But am I? Anywho, so yeah, I thought that was really fascinating. I also want to tell you the article that Katie Miller was referencing now. It's in, what did I just say?
Krispin: Wall Street Journal?
DL: Yes. I always want to say The Washington Post because everybody's conservative now. But, it's the Wall Street Journal. It says, "Are therapists to blame for the rise of adults cutting off their parents? Many moms and dads believe that their adult children are getting bad advice, and a growing number of researchers agree. Everything becomes trauma." That's the quote.
Krispin: It's been a minute since I read this article, but for one, the researchers that they're referencing, this is just their opinion.
DL: Right.
Krispin: This is just, like, a researcher that's like, "This is my opinion." You know?
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Also worth noting, researchers, they deal a lot with data. They aren't therapists. They're not.
DL: Right.
Krispin: But I think– I don't know if you're ready for me to jump in with my thought on this.
DL: Please.
Krispin: This is not new. Forever in therapy we've been talking about how our early experiences in childhood and adolescence, including how our parents parented us, shape our lives.
DL: Yes.
Krispin: We call it trauma nowadays. Like, yes, Freud wasn't calling it trauma.
DL: Uh-huh.
Krispin: But, that's been the thing in therapy forever. So why are you suddenly saying all of a sudden, you know, therapists are painting our adverse childhood experiences as having a lifelong impact. Like that's the whole therapy thing.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: So yeah, I just think, yes, it, I will acknowledge there's an increasing inclusion in trauma and what we call trauma.
DL: Mm-hmm.
Krispin: That being said, if we're talking about 30 years ago, people were in therapy being like, "Yeah, this happened to me when I was a child, and that shapes how safe I feel in the world, how much I remember my past, my levels of anxiety and depression." Which is just, you know, we just use different words for it now.
DL: Yeah, and I just think, I know we're supposed to be positive in this, so I'm like, we gotta get past this. This is it, we're basically done. But I wanted to bring this up just to say, in this episode, talking about life after leaving, living your best prodigal life, it means disengaging from this conversation as the mainstream media is having it.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: When these people are starting to say, "Everything's become trauma now," you know, like, all, “There's a mental health crisis growing.” I'm like, yeah, a mental health crisis for the emotionally mature parents who have never dealt with any of their shit. We're all doing better mentally. So that's not my problem.
Krispin: Right.
DL: You guys can go figure that shit out. And I just want to say for anyone stuck in this, if your parents are reading Joshua Coleman books, if they're reading these articles because these are going to keep happening since it's growing and growing and growing, many times we are just like, who wants to have a conversation with someone when you're like, "This hurt me," and they're like, "No, it didn't"?
Krispin: Right.
DL: Where can you move forward from that? How many times are you going to have that conversation? That's where these people are at, and a part of being a prodigal and living your best life is saying, "I don't want to have this conversation anymore."
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: I respect myself and my own experience enough to say I shouldn't have to explain over and over and over again why this is hurtful to me and harmful to me. Does that make sense?
Krispin: Yeah, totally.
DL: So I want to move on from these people, especially Katie Miller. You know eugenics is my personal special interest right now, talking about the birth rate.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: What's fascinating, this is also a part of the prodigal narrative. We're not having kids. We're not having white kids like we're supposed to, Krispin.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And that really does upset them, and so that's a part of this whole thing, too. I think putting this in the context of our social political reality, many of us are sick and tired of the way America, our empire, treats other people, the boot crushing the neck of so many people, and we don't want that from our parents either.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: We don't want to be crushed under their boot. We don't want any boots crushing nobody. We don't want to lick them. You know what I mean? So to me, this is all about... I'm similar to Katie Miller whereas I'm like, hey, this estrangement issue is indicative of a larger societal thing. But personally, I am excited because I think that means we are getting really over these oppressive ways of trying to control people. What do you think, Krispin?
Krispin: Yeah, I agree. I think it’s the same story happening over and over again, which is the people that historically have power are losing power, and they're freaking out, and they're trying to get it back.
DL: Yeah. Okay. I agree. Now, before we share, because we're going to share some amazing comments we got from our Discord community from our Instagram. we kind of wanted to do a tiny bit, we'll keep it short. Yeah. What has it been like for each of us after leaving? And maybe now's a good time for me to say for all the beautiful, wonderful autistic people listening, I'm going to go ahead and say the word prodigal, it’s actual meaning is spending money lavishly and irresponsibly.
Krispin: Oh! Okay.
DL: Not always irresponsibly, but prodigal means lavish. So, like prodigious. You know what I mean?
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: Like all these things. So the way that the Christian estranged parent community is just, they mean it as someone who leaves.
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: And so that's how we're using it. I know that's really annoying some people listening. It actually, you know, the intended usage is spending money lavishly. But that's not how these communities use it.
Krispin: Oh. Uh-huh. That’s funny.
DL: But what's it been like for you being a prodigal and leaving?
Krispin: Yeah. Yeah, we actually, after the first episode, we got a question from a listener and friend who lives locally, asking to hear what it's like to get out from under religious authority to the extent you have, he said, because obviously this whole country is under Christian fascist authority.
DL: Yeah. Not my president.
Krispin: Right?
DL: If only that was true.
Krispin: Yeah, but I think for me, thinking about both, like setting boundaries with my parents 10 years ago, and then just continuing to move out from evangelicalism and just that religious authoritarianism. I feel like it took a little while. It was tough at first, especially with a lot of scrupulosity, feeling a lot of guilt for setting boundaries with my parents because that's how we're programmed.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: But eventually I got to this part where it just felt like so much of my brain space was opened up.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Like, I just had more internal space. It just felt like there was more Krispin in there and less of, like, what do my parents think? How do they view me? Et cetera. and I feel like that really gave me a lot of space to process and heal from abuse that I experienced in childhood. So, like a lot of trauma healing.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And it really felt like this message to my younger self that like, "Hey, Krispin, I'll take care of you. I will tune into what you need." And it really was this getting in touch with this protective energy that really helped with my trauma healing.
DL: Interesting.
Krispin: Yeah. Okay. Just like, okay, I'm allowed to, like, get in touch with where my boundaries are. You know?
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: So I think that's one huge piece, especially in the two, three years after not having contact with my parents. On the religious side of things, I don't have to accommodate people with terrible views anymore.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And their strategies of using power don't work anymore, right? Like, when they try to say, "Well, the Bible says this," and it's like, "Well, I don't... the Bible isn't an authority." And even when I was a Christian, I was like, "Well, I see it differently."
DL: Well, when you were a Christian and engaged in these conversations, because both of us are semi-public people, right? We write and all that stuff. How much of your mental space was being taken up by these interactions, these arguments, these justifying yourself to Christians?
Krispin: Yes. So much.
DL: I'm asking you, what, what do you think the percentage was?
Krispin: Yeah, probably like 30%.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Right? Yeah.
DL: Which doesn't seem like a lot, but then when that goes away you're like, whoa.
Krispin: That is a lot.
DL: I have more capacity, more room, more freedom, more spaciousness.
Krispin: Right. Yeah, totally. Yeah, and I think that just realizing, I was reflecting on this, and I was like the people that I was engaging with, they were never going to change their views on things. So it just was, you know, a waste.
DL: Yeah, but your religion told you if you did it perfectly right, maybe they would.
Krispin: Yes, exactly. Yeah. And you're supposed to, you know, keep fellowship, you know?
DL: Yep, unity above all! Right, Krispin?
Krispin: Right. Exactly. The last thing I would say is just a lot more agency in my life. I got to do the thing that evangelicals warned me against, which is living according to what was right in my own eyes.
DL: A life of sin and debauchery!
Krispin: Right. Yeah, it just feels really empowering and just feels like life is a lot more satisfying because you get to determine, like, "What do I want to spend my time and energy on?"
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: I've been able to get in touch with more of my gender queerness. It's always been there. And this is kind of related to what I just said, but like, just feeling like I am spending less energy engaging with conservative folks who are never going to change their mind, and more energy in healing and nurturing and, just giving energy to things that I think should exist in the world. You know?
DL: Right. I love that. I love that, because that's what we've talked a lot about before, too, is divesting means you have more energy to invest, right? In what you want to see in the world, and that's so important and so powerful. So thanks for sharing that, Krispin.
For me, I think it's interesting, I think this week perhaps is the 10-year anniversary of me publishing my first book.
Krispin: Oh.
DL: Which was, you know, me trying to make sense of the mission industrial complex and meeting Somali refugees, how they changed my life. And I think it's interesting to be like, it's been 10 years of me hardcore trying to get white evangelicals to change. You know, during the Trump and MAGA years is, wow, what a time.
Yeah, my book came out and then Trump was elected, right? Six weeks later, maybe two months later. And life has gone on since then, and I just think like, it... I'm thinking more personally, my writing, it brought up tension with my parents. It brought up tension with Christians, and it's just so nice to not have to do that anymore.
And for people who are listening, if you're somewhere in that medium space, right? You are maybe low contact, maybe you've set a few boundaries, maybe you're just dipping your toes into those waters. It's really rough. And so this is just my personal experience. Everything has gotten so much better once I fully left.
Being in the in between was excruciating, and I was there for– because this started even before I published my book.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: I would say I was there for about 10 years. So you can't rush that process. You gotta do what's best for you. But once I fully left Christianity, that was really important for my mental health. And then that gave me eventually the space to go more low contact with my parents, and then finally no contact. So for me, they were related.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And I had to fully leave. This is my personal story, and it's just gotten so much better once I could truly set those boundaries. And then I was able to really think about my childhood, think about my past, do some healing work, and be like, "Of course, this is what I needed to do." Well, especially the levels of indoctrination I experienced, you know?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: So for me, I think I just want to normalize this story. It's still really rare to find people who were public Christians who are like, "Actually, I'm not a Christian anymore." And so as annoying as the feedback I get sometimes, I think it's really important just to say, for me, when I stopped praying to Jesus, when I stopped praying, it was probably the most important boundary I've ever set in my life.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And then everything kinda moved on from there. Even though I'd been doing a lot of this work slowly, slowly, slowly, but it was kind of excruciating being constantly trying to change. So I think one of the best things that's happened for me is I can live out my values, and my values are so important to me, without constantly having to make justifications for them. Like you said, appealing to scripture, appealing to Christianity. It's like, no, I don't think people should abuse kids. I think everybody should have food and shelter. Well, I don't think we should be sending so much of our money to Israel so that they can bomb people.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: I just believe that. I don't think apartheid is good. I think eugenics is the most horrific belief that has shaped our entire world. I don't have to make a case. I can just believe these things. And that is really great, because a lot of my brain was thinking about how to keep justifying these things. I'm like, nope. These are my beliefs. This is my morality. You know?
Krispin: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
DL: And, and I believe it. So there's that, for me. So I think I also wanted to ask you before we get into some of the comments, you know, you're a therapist, you've been online. How do you see this going for people as they set boundaries, as they leave perhaps the religion they were born into?
And maybe I'll just also throw in right here, you know, some people have been sending me this information, but I guess a new study came out that, like, 50% of women are leaving the Mormon Church now. Young women. So that's huge.
Krispin: Mmm, mm-hmm.
DL: So if 50% of young women are leaving the Mormon church, that's a huge deal. And to me, that totally fits into this whole prodigal summer narrative. Like, this is going to keep happening. This is the expected outcome. When you hinge your entire religion on white supremacist patriarchy, women are going to leave. And people with a moral conscience are going to leave. You know what I mean?
Krispin: Yeah. Right. Uh-huh.
DL: So I want to hear from you. How do you see it going for people as they're leaving or setting boundaries? Like, what's the vibe you're getting?
Krispin: Yeah. Well, I, I've seen some really impactful things, and I'm, as I say these things, I'm not making… Well, I'll say them and then I'll give my caveat.I've seen people be like, "Yeah, since I cut off contact with this parent, like my chronic illness symptoms have really shifted." "My suicidal ideation went away."
DL: Yep.
Krispin: "I've ended other toxic relationships." “All of a sudden I could see this pattern playing out in a lot of areas of life.” And just this general, like, people seeing how they deserve better and being able to get in touch with their own value and worth and goodness.
And I think that's because it really is about view of self which is a big part of your psychological makeup, right? Your psychological health is really about how you view yourself. And because your parents got the first chance to shape that, they have this really big influence on how you view yourself. And for some people, they're able to process through it and continue in relationship with their parents.
For other people, it really makes this huge difference to just have that space from them so that you're not continually getting that like input and energy that you've gotten your whole life, starting from when you were a baby. If that makes sense?
DL: Yeah, and I think that's also, you know, again, we want to try to focus on the positives, but you saying people realizing they deserve better, that's such a huge theme for so many people. And there's a lot of grief in that. There's a lot of empowerment that comes from this, but there's also the grief of, "I did deserve better." When you were a little kid. When you were a teenager, when you're a young adult.
Krispin: Right.
DL: And just the ways, especially if you were like a true believer or you were like working in ministry, when you add all these layers and you just kind of can step back and be like, "I was only valued for how well I could fit into that system and support it." "I deserved better. I deserve to be seen for who I am," you know?
So I also want to say that it's really normal for this to be such an overwhelming concept for people because you think, “I do deserve better.” That's self-empowering, but for me, that came with a lot of grief and a lot of processing I had to sit with. I see that happening to people. For me, what I've seen for people when they start leaving and set boundaries is they experience a lot of ups and downs. Both. And so I just want to say, it's not going to be a linear thing. You know what I mean?
Krispin: Right. Yes.
DL: It's just going to be a really long process, and every little step you make to connect to your physical body, to your emotional state, to your likes and dislike, you know, all these things we keep talking about, it's going to help you on this journey as you continue to live life for yourself and not for anyone else.
Okay, so we're going to share some comments now that we got from listeners, and again, we're going to be conflating a little bit setting boundaries with religion and/or parents and/or community. That's just how many of us are experiencing this.
Krispin: Right, because I think it just has to do with getting in touch with your agency and what you want versus either what your parents want or what the religion expects from you.
DL: Yeah, so let's start really concrete and really simple. Once you start setting boundaries with your religion of origin, this is something that people brought up quite a bit. They said they have Sunday mornings to themselves. They have a whole day perhaps to themselves. They have this freedom. You know, someone said, "I'm no longer compelled or guilted to serve the church."
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: I can serve and help other people by doing things that are actually good for real existing people on this earth." So I was like, whoa, just that's an interesting example, right, of space, time, and energy suddenly being in your life.
Krispin: The divestment versus investment, right?
DL: Yes! So isn't it interesting? Yeah. What do you think? Wasn't it nice when we stopped going to church?
Krispin: Yes.
DL: It was so great. Even though we went to an awesome church.
Krispin: Right, yeah. Uh-huh.
DL: Yeah. It was progressive. It was very cool, but like…
Krispin: Right. Yeah, it is really nice to feel like, I have just more freedom to think about, where do I want to invest and serve? I like this, in this one too, somebody said this year was the first Easter in 51 years that they didn't do anything at all.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Didn't celebrate. I love that. We love not doing anything on Easter.
DL: Oh my God, it's so interesting how religion is so tied to all these holidays, obviously, in the US. And divesting from the religion means you get to rethink holidays, you get to rethink your weekends, you get to rethink how you volunteer, do mutual aid.
Krispin: Uh huh! Right. Ever since I, you know, shifted away, I have been grateful for every Good Friday that I don't have to feel guilty on.
DL: Oh God. Good Friday is actually Horrible Friday. I know.
Krispin: Right?
DL: It's pretty great. I mean, Christmas has been the hardest for me personally.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: But it has been fun to think about Yule and think about cozy winters and not needing a day or two to, you know, to celebrate it all. So that's really interesting.
Here's a big category of comments we got, and this revolves around queerness. Now, queerness is sort of essential to this conversation because for many queer people, they have not... some of them haven't even made the choice to become estranged. It has been thrust upon them because the religions we're talking about are incredibly homophobic and transphobic, and that is a central tenet of their white supremacist patriarchy, right?
So for many people, they don't even choose to become estranged. It just happens to them because they're queer, because they're gay, because they can't hide it anymore.
Krispin: Right.
DL: So, you know, I'm just saying, there's this narrative that people are choosing this when many times it's actually, like, thrust upon them. But here are some of the things that people have talked about, what life has been like after leaving when it comes to queerness. Someone said, "It's just been so meaningful to be accepted and just have people using chosen name and pronouns.” Just the relief it feels to have someone finally honor that, right? After being with people who don't. Someone else said, "Two months after going no contact with my authoritarian MAGA mother, the egg finally cracked and I realized I'm trans masc non-binary at the ripe old age of 45."
Krispin: Yay!
DL: I know! It's sad, but I also love a late-in-life bloomer. We understand what that's like. And this person said that their world changed so much in the last six months. "It feels like I get to be myself for the first time ever." And they really needed that safe distance from their mom in order for that to happen.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Someone else said, since going low or no contact with family, both of their kids came out as queer, "And I don't think they would've felt comfortable enough to do that if we'd still been spending time with my family. That was all the validation I needed that I made the right choice."
Krispin: Yeah. I think that's so huge. Again, going with the question of where are you investing your time, maybe I'm reading into this but, not just grandparents, but a lot of times the enmeshed family is, like, you're just spending so much time with extended family, and if they're all conservatives, then you're not giving your kids much chance to be with a more diverse group of people and feel more free.
DL: Yeah, and I think this is something that comes up. I know there's people listening who don't identify as queer. You know, they're like, "I'm straight, I'm cis," or whatever. "What do I do if I'm in a relationship with my parents and they are, you know, homophobic, or one of my siblings queer?"
So I just wanted to say, if you're not queer and you're listening, I hope you take a moment just to listen to these comments because it shouldn't have to happen to you for it to be a big deal. If you're straight and cis, you should be able to think, what is it like for a queer sibling, a grandchild, your own children, and protect those people in your life.
Protect the queer youth in your life and stand up to the homophobic and transphobic people in your family. If you're going to be in a relationship, then you better be standing up to those beliefs and protecting those who those beliefs target. So I'll say that. But I agree with this comment that if you want your own kids, or the kids in your life to feel free, you have to stop investing in these relationships where that's never going to be an option in those communities.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: I feel like this kind of goes along with queerness, but someone said,
"Everything has gotten better since leaving. Like, literally everything. I realized that staying in a relationship with my parents meant that I had to keep myself small so that I could relate to them. I don't think my parents understand most of the choices I've made in my life, but they were absolutely the right ones for me. I'm so glad I didn't let them ruin my adult life. I'm doing things I never dreamed would be possible for me."
And so much of queerness, I think, is about you can't or you won't stay in these boxes designed for you. And so I really resonated with this person saying, staying in a relationship with my parents meant I had to keep myself small. That was really my experience as well.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
DL: And I don't think it's all due to being non-binary, but just, like, being opinionated, you know, being all these things. Only if I was parroting Rush Limbaugh was I allowed, you know?
Krispin: I mean, I just think everybody deserves the space to figure out, "What is my gender expression? What's my sexuality?" Like, very, very, very rarely do people fall squarely in one spot. And so I just think when you are in these spaces, it just doesn't give a lot of space to, you know, tune in and discover these things.
Which I think relates a lot to the next theme, which was self-discovery. Right? So just a lot of comments about people being able to really connect with their authentic selves. Which I just think about, like, seeing all these comments, it just really says something about the terms of these relationships. You belong as long as you are not your true self.
DL: Yeah. So yeah, there's this really huge theme of once you live that prodigal life, once you leave, you're able to discover yourself in new ways. We got this really amazing email from a Native American listener who said that,
"Life is not always good, but I believe I have the tools within me to survive it like my ancestors did. Being strong-willed and my very I-don't-give-a-fuck attitude has saved me much more heartache and pain than I would have if I had lived up to my parents' and family's expectations."
And I think this is, like, really important for self-discovery, just the fact that this listener's getting in touch with her ancestors, with their dreams. This is so important for everyone to think about the colonizer mindset and mentality that has infiltrated so much of our lives.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And I don't know. I just thought, like, wow. Yeah. Getting in touch with some ancestry work, and also just, I don't know, the strong-willed of it all I think is so important. It can also be very simple and smaller, and like one person said, you know, after leaving kind of their parents' fold, they said, "I always had to be quiet and well-mannered there, but it turns out I'm actually passionate, loud, enthusiastic, and crass."
\Multiple people mentioned they love to swear.
Krispin: Mm! Uh-huh.
DL: Obviously on this podcast, I love to swear. I thought that was kind of fun.
Krispin: Yeah, I was like, a lot of that sounds like you. And experiencing you around your parents.
DL: Right? another person said, "I can take actual deep breaths now. I can feel feelings. I can be present in my body. I can..." Oh, this is one that a lot of people said, "I can enjoy music and books and movies and games, without judging if they are edifying."
Krispin: Uh-huh.
DL: This came up for so many people. Being able to do self-discovery and discover what you like without that constant narrative of, is this Christian? Is this good? Am I okay for watching this? I don't know. Have you experienced that yourself?
Krispin: Yeah, totally. Yeah. I just think about even sometimes you and I watch things, and it's just like, yeah, we can just enjoy it. Right? Or, or not, you know? But yeah. Yeah, totally. It's that evangelical filter.
DL: Right?
Krispin: Right? But I like that it falls away. Yeah. I got a comment, I realized that you couldn't see the comments that I had in there. This person talking about, like, as they were leaving, they said, "My life started out with trying everything new, like being a teenager all over again." I love that.
DL: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Krispin: “But there's a lot of uncertainty, and I didn't know how to talk to anyone about it because I wasn't sure what I believed or who I was. I wanted to figure it all out before I vocalized it." Which I think is something that I hear a lot as a therapist, which is this idea of, "I should have it already figured out." Which I think is because we want to, like, defend our actions. Right?
DL: Yeah. Yeah.
Krispin: Like, you have to be prepared to, like, defend your actions. But, this person said, "Now I've been out 11 years and my relationship with my kids is closer than I could have imagined. I live through a lens of curiosity, not judgment.” They’re living life on their own terms. "And as hard as I tried to please them by staying quiet, it was slowly killing me inside. I had to do many years of internal work and healing to be so secure in myself that I was willing to let them drift out of my life, like a balloon slowly going up into the sky."
DL: Oh, that's beautiful.
Krispin: I know. I just thought that was a really cool image and because it is painful. And so just, like, having, having a metaphor like that to hold onto is really beautiful.
DL: Yeah. Wow. Going back to this very tangible, like, being in a relationship with parents versus not being with them, someone said, "For me, it felt like getting to exhale when they left."
They said, "I notice how any time I talk to my parents, it took a while for my heart rate and blood pressure to return to normal after. And the same effect would happen when it felt like it had been too long since we'd spoken, and I started dreading the next conversation. But no longer having that stress in my life about interactions with people that have no interest in a genuine adult relationship has been a huge upgrade."
Again, I feel like these comments are all so interesting. Some of them are very practical like that, right? Just the physical sensations and stress of being in a relationship with people who don't actually want to know you. and then there's again, some more esoteric ones. Like, someone said, "I love knowing I am okay the way I am, and I am still okay even if my thoughts and actions are not perfect all the time."
Krispin: Mm. Mm-hmm.
DL: And I see such a correlation actually between those two different comments and this theme that comes up with people giving themselves curiosity, grace, and just being like, "I'm a human. It's okay if I'm not perfect. It's okay if I'm not measuring up to whatever standard has been given to me.” You know?
Krispin: Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that's huge. Because in these systems, you're not allowed to be yourself. You have to fit into the system. And that really takes a toll. Which – should we talk about the physical part?
DL: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that's a good segue into the physical.
Krispin: Right. Someone said, “Literally just having fewer panic attacks biweekly to almost none has been life-changing, and if that was the only benefit, it would've still been worth it.” Yes. If you're having panic attacks twice a month, in this system, you know?
DL: Is it okay to just ask the listeners right now, if you're still in relationship with people that stress you out, it might be worth logging your physical reactions to them.
Krispin: Right.
DL: And, you know, it's, it's just interesting. Like, gather the information with curiosity and don't try and shame yourself for having a panic attack.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Many of us have tried so hard that our body just sort of takes over at some point to try and protect us because we are muscling through.
So I didn't start... I mean, I started getting panic attacks, I guess, 12 years ago. But mine have really lessened since going no contact. It doesn't mean they never happen but I have really seen this to be true in my own life as well.
Krispin: Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to share this comment:
"It's been both freeing and hard, joyful and filled with grief, empowering and lonely, enlightening and confusing. I am hopeful for a time when I feel more free. I think it will take time, especially as I heal my nervous system from the constant religious hypervigilance and codependency on the church. I am damn proud of myself for processing all this through my writing and art."
DL: Wow!
Krispin: Yeah. I mean, it is a lot, but I really like that part of recognizing that hypervigilance, which is a theme that we heard from a few comments.
DL: Yes. We did hear about this. And, a lot of people said – again, this could actually be about parents or it could just be about religion – they said, "It's such a relief not to have to be hypervigilant all the time." And I think for many of us, hypervigilance was really encouraged, especially in religious authoritarian parenting books, to teach your kids to be hypervigilant about sin, about obedience, about following God.
And so that was the big thing for me when I deconverted, is not having to be hypervigilant. It was totally related to that, and it gave my nervous system a chance to try and calm down. Now, I feel like nervous system care is one of my many part-time jobs. I invest so much time into caring for my nervous system, and this is a huge recommendation I have for anyone listening.
No matter what situation you're in, learning how to care for your nervous system is golden.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And the internet is quite full of people who have some good tips and tricks, and you just figure out what works for you, what brings you relief. What helps you feel good and safe in your body, because for many people, the baseline is we have to get to a place where we can feel a bit safe before we can do any of this work.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And for many of us, our parents and our religion does not make us feel safe. Therefore, we need to have some kind of boundaries in place. So I'll put that there. I'll do one more comment, and then you can, you can jump in, Krispin.
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: Someone said, "The best part of prodigal life is mainly freedom of thought. I never realized the energy-consuming influence of the fear, obligation, and guilt that I carried with me. I wasn't aware of the mental strain it put on me."
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: This, I think, is true for a lot of people. Until they kind of realize how much religion and parental control is inside their own brains, until that goes quiet, you kind of don't know how pervasive it is. This is something I know you're trying to tackle in your book you're working on. And it's hard, isn't it to get people to kinda see this?
Krispin: Right. Yeah. Yeah, because you, I mean, I would say in evangelicalism, you never will measure up. So you always have to be working.
DL: I mean, that's a part of the thing, yeah.
Krispin: Right. Exactly. And I would, I find that, like, for so many folks, similarly, their parents always want more or different or, you know.
DL: It’s never enough, yeah.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. It's never enough. So yeah, you're just always working to try to be more or different than who you are, which is exhausting.
DL: Yeah. Okay, last thing I'll say about the physical, is another person said, "For me, I spent years having panic attacks any time I even thought about my parents, much less talked to them. Now I'm so much calmer and healthier, and it's easier to deal with hard things because I'm not also dealing with them at the same time."
And I do think this general concept is why we're seeing an even sharper uptick in estrangement, is because the fascism is fascism-ing. And life is getting harder and harder, and people don't have the margin to placate their parents or their religion anymore, especially when the parents and the religion are, like, ushering in the hard conditions, right? If you lose your job, do you really have the energy to go to Easter with your parents who voted for Trump? You know what I mean?
Krispin: Right. Exactly.
DL: A lot of us are like, "No! We don't!" So I think this is just, just a reality that's happening for so many people.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I think I talked about it in one of our previous episodes, but I remember a friend of mine, a boomer guy, he's like, "You have so much going on in your life. Like, you don't have the space to put up with this bullshit from your parents, too." You know?
DL: Yeah. Wasn't that nice to be told that?
Krispin: Uh-huh!
DL: So we're telling you, listener, like, you have a lot going on in your life. And you need to conserve your energy for the relationships and values that are really meaningful to you. You know what I mean?
The last category I have of comments is under this broad umbrella of, like, fully living your life. And you probably have better therapeutic language for this, you know, I just call it autonomy, and living your life for you. Being like, "I only got one life. I got this one body. This is my one chance to experience this world. I'm going to do it on my terms."
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Right.
DL: And it's the most powerful moment I think a person could have. And for some people that happens early, and for others like me, it happens late. And, you know, everybody's on their own journey, I suppose. But is there, like, a therapeutic term for this?
Krispin: I mean, I don't really know. I think of self-actualization. But I just think this idea of pursuing, being attuned to your, in IFS language I would say your core self. Attuned to your core self and living out of that. And I think living out of that means both the things that are enjoyable and pleasurable to you, and the things that match your values, even if they're not, you know, pleasurable.
And I’m speaking to that idea that, in evangelicalism, and just in general, it's like, well, if I live my life for myself, am I going to be a selfish person? And, there are lots of selfish people that are in Christianity.
DL: Let's flip that question and reverse it! You know what I mean?
Krispin: Right. Yeah. Does Christianity keep people from being selfish and exploitative of others?
DL: Doesn't seem like it.
Krispin: Doesn't seem like it. So, I just think you are who you are. There are selfish people out there. If you're listening, I think you probably aren't.
DL: Well, hopefully you have a little bit. You know what I mean?
Krispin: Yes, right.
DL: Hopefully you're not exploitative.
Krispin: Right. I saw... Oh, gosh, I wish I could remember. I think it was one of the ex-Mormon therapists on Instagram. But I really liked it. They talked about selfishness. The definition of selfishness is actually exploiting others, not being thoughtful to others, harming others for your own gain. But, within religion, selfishness is thinking about your own needs and putting yourself first sometimes and, you know, just normal human things.
DL: Not having a servant's heart. Yeah, so I think this thing about fully living your life, it's going to be all over the map, but I just want to go through some of these comments we got. One of them said, "What hasn't gotten better? You know, seriously, when I first went no contact over five years ago, the overwhelming emotion was relief. I thought that would fade over time, but it hasn't."
I thought that was really interesting, because people do wonder in the back of their minds, like, "Am I going to regret this? Am I going to regret this?" And mostly what we heard from people is that this sense of relief doesn't go away.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And for me, this has also been true, because it's sort of shameful almost because we get so many messages like, “Going no contact or leaving your, or Christianity, all this is the worst thing you could ever do.”
And like in the long run I'm like, "I'm so happy." I'm happy that this happened to me. I'm so grateful this happened to me. I wish it happened earlier, but it didn't. And so now I'm just really grateful that I get to live the rest of my life on my own terms. And these terms can show up in so many different ways.
Krispin: Right. Mm-hmm.
DL: Someone said, “I don't feel compelled to confess or give an account for anything anymore. I just tell the truth as appropriately as I can. And I no longer feel compelled to share anything with religious authoritarians.”
I love this comment. To me, this is, like, boss level boundaries.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Right.
DL: Once you're like, "I don't need to share who I really am with you." Because you know it won't be valued. You know it won't be respected. So you're like, "Mm, I'm going to keep that to myself." I love that. Another person said, "I can acknowledge and feel the weight of things going horribly in the world without spiritually bypassing or saying it's all a part of God's plan."
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And to me, this really speaks to, like, when you're living an autonomous, embodied life, it doesn't disconnect you from the world. It doesn't make you selfish. It actually gives you the tools to live in this fucking complicated, beautiful, horrible mess that we actually live in.
Krispin: Right. Yeah. Yeah, there's another comment that I think is related. This person said, "Feeling like I have control and agency in my own life has been huge. Contrary to the prodigal narrative, my choices have only gotten healthier and more sustainable since leaving." And I think that relates to the spiritual bypassing, right?
DL: Yes.
Krispin: When you're spiritual bypassing, it’s actually not actually dealing with the stress that you're facing. It's just compartmentalizing it or ignoring it, and then you still have to find some way to manage your nervous system, sometimes through unhealthy ways. Right? Versus, "Okay, I'm going to actually face this head-on and decide, what do I want to do about it," instead of just, like, thoughts and prayers.
DL: Yes, and again, this came up a lot in the comments because we're having this conversation about estrangement in the context of our actual world, and there's so much going on.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: So someone said, "This is a massive positive with a side of rage," which I appreciate them sharing that. They said, "I grew up in an environment that was very passive towards personal suffering, while also being extremely moralistic and controlling around work, rest, and spending. This led to a lot of avoidable suffering being shrugged away with, 'It is what it is,' as if there was nothing anyone could do about it. But as an adult, I don't have to live that way."
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: And this is fascinating, because I think people think about controlling parents, controlling religions, and they just think it's like, "Do this, do this, do this," but there's also this underlying, like, "And you must accept your suffering."
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And so this comment really gets towards that, and autonomy says, "No, I don't. I don't accept this for myself." And, now, this can be an exhausting emotion when you live in an empire like America. You're like, "I don't accept the way America treats people," you know?
Krispin: Right.
DL: It's exhausting, but it's also important. It's because you're like, I don't deserve that. The kids in ICE detention centers don't deserve that. Like, it's a really important emotion to get in touch with.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And Christianity, especially the ones that are Western, patriarchal, white supremacist, teach you you have to accept that. And we hear that a lot about toxic families, too: "It's your family. You just have to accept it." You know?
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
DL: You only have one mom and dad, you know? And it's like, well, what if Mom and Dad think I should get AIDS because I'm gay, and die? You know what I mean? This is not outside the realm of possibility. This is how some people think.
Krispin: Right. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to share this one I really liked, which is related. "I own my own life," right? Which goes back to what you said at the beginning, where in Christianity you're taught your life is not your own, right?
DL: Yeah, I have a former colleague who wrote a book called that, right?
Krispin: Uh-huh. Yeah. "You Are Not Your Own."
DL: Yep.
Krispin: Yeah. "I own my own life, energy, time, obligation, responsibility. They don't get any of it. It's mine to do with as I choose. I watch my siblings circle around the same patterns of manipulation and drama, and I don't have to anymore. They've identified other scapegoats as well since I've stopped being involved, and pretty soon the prodigals are going to outnumber the ones still in the nest."
DL: Well, that is absolutely true.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: If it's already 50% of young women leaving the Mormon church…You know what I mean?
Krispin: Yes. Uh-huh.
DL: Like, everybody's holidays are going to get tense, tense, tense, and this is actually how societal change happens, y'all. This is how the Roman Empire falls.
Krispin: Yeah. I mean, we're trying to get this empire to fall, right? We're trying.
DL: We're trying.
Krispin: We're trying, Katie Miller.
DL: Ohh my God.
Krispin: That's our goal.
DL: Okay, I have a few more I really want to share.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: One of the things that was interesting that came up was, one of the benefits somebody experienced once they had escaped this whole world was that they were able to meet other people with similar experiences and have conversations, “Because when I was in that system, I was sheltered from people like the person I am today.”
That's really interesting, right? Like, once you can even leave this mental world where you can only watch Christian things or only communicate with other Christians, wow, does your world broaden up.
Krispin: Right. Yes.
DL: You know? And how much religious authoritarians don't want us to find each other. It's kind of interesting. And it makes me be like, well, then I'm going to keep podcasting once a month. You know what I mean?
Krispin: Uh-huh. Yep.
DL: Yeah. I mean, I think that's about where, where we're going to end with all the comments. We want to just say thank you to everyone who sent us your hard-earned wisdom, for sharing with us how life has gotten better for you after leaving. Doesn't mean it's easier, but it's better physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. Thank you so much, and if you're not in a place where you are feeling any of these positives, just know, there's so many of us out here. The prodigals are mushrooming.
Krispin: Mm-hmm!
DL: You know what I mean? And we're not going to go away. The worse it gets, the more prodigals there's going to be. So I just think, all in all, this is a really good sign that the empire is crumbling, and that we, in our own small ways, are a part of that, and we want to be able to invest in the communities and the people that give us life.
So that's kind of what we're going to end this with. Me and Krispin are each going to share, what is some advice we wish someone had given to us when we were in the thick of leaving. I'm curious to hear from you, Krispin.
Krispin: Yeah. It's funny because my first thought about it was almost, like, dismissive. Like, I was trying to get in touch with it, with what it was like 10 years ago. And I want to go back to myself and just be like, "It'll feel all different. It'll feel way better." But that's not that helpful.
DL: Well sometimes you do need that. You need a visit from yourself in the future to be like, "It actually is going to be okay." You know what I mean?
Krispin: Yeah, exactly.
DL: I think that’s great.
Krispin: Yeah. So I was thinking about that, and part of me was like, "Yeah, I don't want to get in that head space," like, feeling a little bit avoidant of it because it was so stressful. And then I was like, oh, that's just my, like, 30-year-old self. And I can go to him and be like, "Hey, I know this is really stressful, but it's going to be okay. And your life is going to get way better and way less stressful."
DL: Yeah.
The other thing that I would want to go back and tell myself is this urge to set boundaries instead of taking care of your parents' feelings is your protective energy, and that's an important part of being a person, and you can trust it.
DL: Mm! Yeah.
Krispin: Because I was also in that kind of theology of suffering during that time and, you know, suffering for the sake of unity. And I would want to go back and just say, like, "Hey, that urge to protect yourself is connected to your values. And it's a good thing about you and about being a person."
DL: Yeah. I love that. I love that so much. I think I've shared a bit about my own experience and the advice I give, but, for me, I really wish...and I don't know. I actually am quite proud of how I dealt with things. Although it felt like being plunged into emotions that I wasn't comfortable with at all.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
DL: And so what really helped me was music. Some music. As you know, I'm not that into music. But there's certain albums I really became fixated on that helped me get in touch with, I think, an adolescent part of myself that was really needing to set up boundaries for the first time, because I certainly didn't when I was an adolescent. I was not like that as a teenager, so.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Billie Eilish. Oh. My baby, Billie Eilish. And I did this with, like, a lot of artists. They would sing songs about toxic boyfriends and I would sing them to my parents. And it was, like, so important!
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: So my advice is, find songs about toxic relationships and belt them out. And you can sing it to the church, you can sing it to your parents, you can sing it to your YWAM leaders. I don't know. But it felt so good. And it also gave a container for these really intense emotions that I had, even though I'm, like, living my life as a parent and a caregiver, you know?
Krispin: Right.
DL: And then also, like, that makes containers for other emotions. For grief. Like, I would get grief at night. I would feel rageful in the afternoon. Like, you can also kinda map out the different feelings you're going to have. I would feel empowered midday, you know?
Krispin: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
And just being like, yeah, I'm going to have all of these emotions. It's really good to get them out. I'm used to getting things out by writing, but listening to music and singing was great. So "Happier Than Ever" by Billie Eilish. If you've never listened to that, I can't even express to you how many times I listened to that song in particular. Did you have any songs?
Krispin: Well, I listened to Taylor Swift's Red album a lot 10 years ago. I'm not, you know, suggesting to give more streams to that billionaire. But yeah…
DL: It was what it was. It was important for you.
Krispin: Right. Yes. It was great. And, yeah, like the, "We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together," I'd sing that all the time. Also, this song, "Almost Do" was really powerful to me because it's all about, like, you probably think I hate you, but really, I really care about you, but it's just too toxic of a dynamic and I can't put myself in that situation again. Which I think really resonates with a lot of people. It's like, I don't hate you, but I just can't keep doing this.
But I wanted to mention three songs that I like. One is "Orbiting" by The Weepies.
DL: Oh, yeah.
Krispin: Which is so good because it is about parental estrangement. And basically she says, the chorus goes, "You are kind of a moon outside of my room. I could just feel you nearby. Now I feel you gone because I know which side you're on, and it's not mine."
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Which is like, it makes me tearful saying it because I think that's kind of the realization that a lot of us have is like, oh, yeah, parents are supposed to, be for their kids, and getting to this realization of like, yeah, that's not how this works, and that's really painful.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Another one... That's a really sad one. Another one, another sad one is, it's really cheesy, but the Say Something, I'm Giving Up On You song.
DL: You were singing it today!
Krispin: I was, because it's about, like, I really want this to work, but if you're not willing to do the work, I'm kind of stuck.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And so the grief of that, of it's not like I want to just throw this relationship away, but if you're not willing to change then, you know, then I have to give up on you. I have to give up on the relationship because I can't do it myself.
Okay, last one is the song by The Used that just goes... The Used is this screamo band. And it just goes, "Goodbye to you. Goodbye to you. You're taking up my time." And I love it, and it's just like, "Goodbye to you. Goodbye." And just that thought about... I feel that way especially with religious conservatives where it's just like, yeah, you're taking up my time, my brain space thinking about how to argue with you.
DL: Boy, bye! Yeah. I love that. I love... Okay, so in the past in our Discord, we've put together a Spotify playlist of, like, songs to sing, and so maybe we'll try and find that. Maybe we'll try and put it on Apple Music or something. But music is important.
We've also talked a lot about this: both Krispin and I do a lot of creative projects aimed at processing feelings. Krispin has written an entire album.
Krispin: Right, yeah. I wrote a whole album of music in the two years following cutting off my parents.
DL: I mean, you wrote a whole book about attachment theory. I think that says something.
Krispin: Yes.
DL: I did an art show last year. I wrote a screenplay this year. We do a lot of creative stuff because processing emotions is a huge part of living the prodigal life. Like, you have so much to unpack and process, and the grief can be really hard, but the flip side of actually sitting in your grief, sitting in the reality that your parents, your community, your faith doesn't care about you as a person, is then you're actually able to engage in joy and pleasure at deeper levels once you are able to grieve. So this is something that people who've been through grief, they get it.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: If you haven't, you maybe don't know, but, like, once you process the grief, the colors are brighter, you know? Tastes are more... I, I, I don't know how to explain it.
Krispin: Right. Yeah. Uh-huh.
DL: So that's just my other plug for, like, feel those feelings,because they're in there. and then it helps you actually be able to engage, be in the present, and experience joy to keep going.
Krispin: Yeah. Right.
DL: Right? Because that's what we want to do. We want to keep going. So I think this was not as happy-go-lucky as I wanted it to be this episode, but it's the reality. It's the reality of it.
Krispin: Right, yeah. Do we want to take a minute before we end to talk about the attachment panic part?
DL: Oh, yeah. Okay, let's do it.
Krispin: Yeah, so attachment panic is this thing that happens in mammals, not just people. Mammals, you know, we generally are herd creatures, and our survival is dependent on our parents for part of our lives. And so when we feel separation from parents, it can create this fight or flight response.
And I think for me it was really helpful to learn about that because it just was this thing of like whenever I thought about even setting boundaries with my parents that felt like it could fracture the relationship, this anxiety would come up and I think that's really common. So I have some thoughts about that.
One is, when that panic comes up, that anxiety, you know, use all the grounding techniques, all that sort of stuff. Like you said, there's a lot of stuff on the internet. But specifically for this, I find it really helpful to think about people that are in your life that are chosen family.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: It's funny, I've talked about this before and I've never used the word chosen family. I'm just like, "The people that, you know, are in your life for a long time that you have a relationship with and that you feel like have a level of commitment to you." And I'm like, oh yeah, that's a chosen family. You know?
DL: Yeah. And I think the reason why conservatives are so intent on making sure their kids don't have access to any queer literature or whatever is because they don't want kids knowing about chosen family. Does that make sense?
Krispin: Yeah, totally.
DL: Exactly. Because I'm like that's what's going to contribute to the fall of the Roman Empire is chosen family because once you're like, I can hang out and have holidays and chill with people who love me and accept me for who I am, yeah all those toxic patriarchal structures crumble.
Krispin: Right. Yep. Exactly. I think another thing is creating a sense of safety and nesting in your home if you can.
DL: If you can. Or your space, yeah.
Krispin: Right, yeah. Exactly. And so I think that is really great. And then, I actually wanted to pitch this to you. You said something to me that you learned from your somatic therapist, which is you can always come back to your body.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: How would you explain that? It was really powerful to me.
DL: Well, that's hard for people if they don't feel safe in their body.
Krispin: That's true.
DL: So for me, it's taken me years of work. Because I'm a stressed out autistic person whose nervous system has been fried since I was very small.
Krispin: Right.
DL: So to me that's such a loaded statement, and I said it to you because we were in a context where you could receive that. But I know for people who have CPTSD and all that, saying, "You can always come home to your body," that's really hard if your body is full of pain, is full of all this stuff. So for me, that started off with an ice pack on the chest. Just giving relief to my vagus nerve.
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: Now it's little things like giving myself an ear massage. Like I'm just finding all the weirdest little tricks to come home to my body. But that is like, an eventual part of healing is recognizing your body is a reliable source of safety, comfort, and grounding. And I just want to be very gentle as I say that. It's not a possibility for everyone.
Krispin: Yeah. I appreciate that. Right.
DL: But you can find your own entry points into being in your body.
Krispin: I think for me it was really powerful because I am someone who, if we think about Enneagram, I'm an Enneagram nine. My whole life I've been very oriented to panic around loss of connection with others.
DL: Mm-hmm. That's true.
Krispin: And so being able to recognize, I'm here with me, some version of that. And again, it can be hard to get in touch with your body, but whatever you can find that's like feeling connected to yourself and a reminder that you're not alone because you have you with you.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Even as I'm saying it, I'm like, that's why I pitched it to you. I was like, I don't know how to explain it well. But if you can get in touch with some sense of that, I think for one, Evangelicalism really trained that and conditioned that out of us, that you are a person that you can trust, and you're okay, you know, as yourself, because it was always like, "You're not enough. You need God."
DL: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a great way to end this episode and to end this series, is just to say, to be a prodigal, for religious authoritarians, it actually means to spend lavishly on yourself. And I want to say emotionally and physically, find ways to spend your time and energy on yourself.
I promise you, you're not going to turn into a horrible, selfish monster. The more connected we are to our bodies, to nature, and to our communities, the more we want to work towards long-term systemic change that benefits everyone.
Krispin: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
DL: So you don't have to feel guilty, but I want just to encourage you to keep investing in yourself.
We're going to just probably end it here and say, thank you for listening. Thank you for supporting this podcast. If you want us to podcast more than once a month, support us on Patreon so we can invest a few more hours in this. But for now, thank you so much. You can, of course, listen to our Growing Up in the Fold series that we're doing on Patreon, talking about the different developmental phases and how religious trauma and religious indoctrination impacts them.
But yeah, thank you everyone. Thanks to all the prodigals. I want to say a huge shout-out to all the queer people who have been doing this work and who've been doing it out loud, who have changed me and Krispin, who have your freedom, your beauty, your autonomy, your joy.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: I mean, to the marginalized communities who have just shown us the way, it's just truly beautiful, and we've been shaped by so many people's stories. We wanted to just contribute a tiny bit to that as well.
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: That's kinda how I want to end it. Thank you to all the prodigals who've gone before. And, you know, we're a part of this mass movement that's happening. So just remember that. As you're in the thick of all of this, you're not alone.
Krispin: Yeah. Yeah, and along with that, thank you so much for so many people that shared their experiences.
DL: Yeah. It’s very powerful.
Krispin: Yeah. I remember 10 years ago just being like, I'm doing this, and it feels like no one else is.
DL: It did feel that way, my goodness.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. And so I just am so grateful for the people that share their experiences because there's so many people that still need to hear about, like, this is a viable option.
DL: It's a possibility.
Krispin: It's a possibility, and it will be okay.
DL: It will be okay.
Krispin: Yeah. So thank y'all so much for listening. We'll be back with another series soon. But in the meantime, if you want to hear more about growing up in a high-control religion, growing up in evangelicalism with religious authoritarian parenting, definitely head to our Patreon.
We're going month by month through all the developmental stages and how growing up this way impacts who you are as an adult. And it's been really fun and also sort of heavy. So, head over there. But in the meantime, we'll be back soon!
DL: Bye!
