We Used to be REALLY Into Christmas
DL and Krispin reflect on many different seasons of celebrating Christmas, and how to re-envisioning future celebrations, including how you engage with family members. We’re hosting a live zoom event on December 6th, Reclaiming the Winter Holidays and we’d love to see you there – join our STRONGWILLED patreon or website membership to attend (or view a recording later!).
If you want to hear our series on the developmental impacts of being raised in a high control religion, you can become a paid subscriber at www.strongwilledproject.com or our STRONGWILLED patreon, where we’re exploring each developmental phase, discussing how religious authoritarian parenting books approached them, what typical development looks like and what the long-term impacts might be from being raised under religious authoritarian parents (in a high control religion).
We'd love to hear from you all about what resonates and anything you'd add to the conversation! Thank you so much for your continued support! You can follow STRONGWILED on Instagram. You can follow Krispin on Instagram here and DL on instagram here.
As always, this is a survivor-led and survivor-supported publication. If you appreciate our work (and our ad-free podcast!) please consider supporting us financially or sharing about the podcast on your social media channels.
TRANSCRIPT (lightly edited for clarity)
Christmas
DL: Welcome to the STRONGWILLED Podcast. I am D.L. Mayfield, a chaotic writer and podcaster, and with me today, as always, is–
Krispin: Buttoned up Krispin Mayfield.
DL: Buttoned up?
Krispin: I don't know, in contrast to chaotic.
DL: No, you should say. “I'm a lovely therapist. I have actual skills.” You know what I mean?
Krispin: Yes. Okay. Sure.
DL: Yeah, so Krispin's a therapist. I am not, and we've been married for almost 19 years.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And remember, sometimes people think we're siblings or something, so I just have to throw it out there, and-
Krispin: Right. Yeah. Somebody who we recently – not recently, a long time ago – had as a guest on the podcast thought that we were neighbors.
DL: Yeah. Really close neighbors.
Krispin: Yeah, but they were like, "Your relationship is, like, an extra level up from neighbors."
DL: Just like Jesus wanted us to love our neighbor, right, Krispin?
Krispin: Right.
DL: Today we decided... Well, there's a few things we have to talk about really quick. Today's episode is about how we were way too into Christmas for many years, and now we're not into it, and we're going to be talking through that.
Krispin: In different phases of life.
DL: So if you're somebody who grew up with Christmas as a cultural and religious holiday, you might identify with some of what we're talking about. Maybe you won't, but it'll be kind of funny and bizarre and weird. And we're going to talk about how we're not Christians anymore and how that has impacted how we relate to the Christmas season.
But before we do that, we also want to say that this is not going to be, like, a calm, reflective podcast episode. This is you and I just gabbing.
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: But since the holidays is a really tender time for a lot of our listeners, just due to so many factors, we are hosting a Zoom gathering, a conversation we're having with our friend Jenny Blake, who runs this Wheel of our Year project here in Portland, centering around eight seasonal gatherings tied to the Wheel of the Year instead of, you know, consumeristic and Christian holidays.
So we're going to be talking to her about reclaiming the winter holidays. So if you have some thoughts, if you're having some weird feelings about this time of year, you can come and listen to us be in conversation with someone who has thought a lot about this, learn to connect to yourself, your values, and safe community as we move forward.
So I think that's going to be really good, really helpful, and a bit more calmer and reflective. People can just come and be prepared to do some thinking and some feeling and maybe one little practice at the very end. We'll record that. It's for Patreons and paid subscribers only. It's going to be December 6th, which is a Sunday, which is St. Nicholas's Day at 9:00 AM, so come have church with us. Haha.
Krispin: Haha. And definitely bring your questions as well.
DL: Yeah, if you have questions about how can we reclaim these kinds of experiences. Again, we're, we're based in the Northern Hemisphere, so we're going to be talking about winter holidays, but, you know, I think this kind of applies to trying to get in touch with seasons and what our bodies want to do during those seasons.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: So it's going to be great. It's going to be chill. You can keep your screen off. You can choose to not engage at all and just come. So we're excited about that. So sign up. You can support us on Patreon for $4 a month. You can support us on our website, and you'll get to come to that. It'll also be recorded, so we'll send that out too. So I'm excited. We’re going to have STRONGWILLED church, but not really at all.
Krispin: I was going to say, yeah, it will be recorded, but also this is a cool chance that we don't do that often to have in real time engagement if you want to show up and ask questions and talk.
DL: Listen, it's hard for me because I've experienced so many shitty ones. But we're going to try and make this one good, and I'm going to show up because this is a very cool community. So I'm excited.
Krispin: Right. Yeah. This isn't talking in front of, like, a conservative church getting heckled by boomer men.
DL: And if there are boomer men who pay for our Patreon and come to this, I'm going to be in charge of the comments. So I will be so excited to kick them out. So hey, this is going to be great. This is going to be great! December 6th, 9:00 AM. We'll be sending out the info if you, if you're one of the paid people.
Okay, Krispin, let's get into it. Let's talk about what it was like to be way too into Christmas. Now, I'm thinking of myself here. I think in our relationship, who has been a little too into Christmas this whole time?
Krispin: It's funny because there are parts of this where we connected because we're very similar.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: But then I sort of pale in comparison to you.
DL: It's funny. I think, yeah, but I'm not sure that even is true.
Krispin: You're saying that I'm as into it?
DL: Maybe!
Krispin: Maybe. It’s true.
DL: You just keep it a little closer to the vest. But you're right, we were both very sensitive kids, very empathetic kids growing up in these homes. So let's start with childhood. What was your childhood experience with Christmas and the Christmas season?
Krispin: Yeah, a lot of religious traditions, so Christmas Eve services, of course. We would do Advent with our family, weekly on Sundays during the month of December. So every Sunday night we would light a candle, and we had these little brochures, and we'd awkwardly sing a cappella songs.
So yeah, I mean, it's interesting because I feel like even later in life people talk about Christmas parties and all the busyness of the season, but for me, the busyness was all these religious rituals, right?
DL: I'm so confused. How did a family in Roseburg, Southern Oregon, be into Advent in the early '90s? That's kinda wild.
Krispin: Yeah, I don't know. It's just something that our church did.
DL: Huh!
Krispin: We had this really huge ass wreath in the sanctuary that I thought was so cool.
DL: Yes. Okay.
Krispin: Right? Like, it was probably, like, four feet across, you know? So yeah, that's a lot of what I remember. But kind of going with that, there just was this continual, like, you can't be too excited about presents.
DL: Okay.
Krispin: You have to be excited about Jesus' birth. And so yeah, I remember even being a kid and, like, sitting by the Christmas tree and at night and thinking like, "I need to, like, feel more excited about Jesus than about the presents." I also remember a couple of years I was in an evangelistic play, a musical with our local Christian dance company. So that stands out to me.
DL: Like, Nutcracker themed, or how do you make it... I mean, I also was in several Christmas evangelistic plays, so I want to talk about those, but what were yours like?
Krispin: Ours, it wasn't... Oh, it was the Night Before Christmas.
DL: Okay.
Krispin: And all through the house the Holy Spirit showed up and took me, this, you know, fifth grade child through Bible stories that had dance numbers in them.
DL: Were you the only boy in the dance troupe?
Krispin: Yes.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Yes.
DL: Did you love the outfits?
Krispin: Yes, I did. And the Holy Spirit held my hand.
DL: And you had a crush on her.
Krispin: Oh, yeah, totally.
DL: Of course you did.
Krispin: She was, like, 16. And I was, like, 10.
DL: Oh.
Krispin: Right?
DL: Krispin’s dream, guys.
Krispin: Yeah. Like, like holding my hand as she was doing like, point…
DL: Yes, the dancing.
Krispin: Yes. Yes.
DL: Oh my God. Yes. I'm like cracking up right now just thinking about how much you must have enjoyed that.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. I also loved wearing makeup.
DL: Aww.
Krispin: Beause, you know, you had to wear makeup for the play.
DL: That's so funny because I, as a kid, was in a few evangelistic plays myself. One, I was an angel and had to wear full-on stage makeup.
Krispin: Uh-huh.
DL: And I hated it. Oh, I hated it. Because everybody was like, "You should..." Because I was blonde. With all the makeup on, I looked almost like a pageant kid. Like Dolly Parton, but angel. And I hated the attention I got with that.
But my first ever Christmas play, I was a dancing can of tuna, and I loved that. And I'm not going to elaborate, but that was a part of a play. Okay. So you were in Christmas plays with your dance troupe.
Krispin: And then, yeah, I remember having a tradition of going to Christmas Eve service, which felt special because we dressed up and they turned all the lights off and, you know, just had the candles. And then our family would drive around and look at lights, you know, Christmas lights afterward, so I really liked that tradition a lot. But I will say Christmas morning when it's like we have to read the story and we have to do Advent and we have to sing the songs all before we can open presents, I was not a huge fan of.
DL: Interesting. Okay. Yeah.
Krispin: Yeah. I tried to. But it's just like-
DL: And you were the oldest, so you were probably trying to help your siblings and all that. But yeah, I think that's a great way of reminding people, to be a kid in these homes is super weird because you do have all like the capitalism of presents, and then you have all this spiritual pressure like, "Don't get too excited," because that was very much communicated to me.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Remember the reason for the season.
DL: Jesus is the reason for the season. Although, as Jenny says, who we're doing this event with, pagans are actually the reason for the season. But anyways I think for me, I also was really drawn to like the candlelight, the choral music, right? There were songs around this season in church that I was like, "These sound really cool. And very majestic.” And then I had the added pressure of my dad was the pastor, so the Christmas season was a lot of church services and always, almost always a Christmas Eve service, right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: The worst was when Christmas fell on a Sunday.
Krispin: Mm.
DL: And it was always like, ughh. You know? Church had to come first on that day. You would have to Christmas Eve Saturday night, then you have to go to church on Sunday morning, and I was like, "I'm sick of this. I've been hearing about this, okay?"
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: And I didn't like that at all.
Krispin: It's funny, I was just thinking, my dad was a pastor. Why didn't it feel the same? And it's because Christmas Eve services, there were no Sunday school, and he was the Sunday school, the children's pastor.
DL: Oh, so he just showed up. Yeah.
Krispin: So he just showed up. And I remember distinctly, he's like, "It's so nice to go to church and not have to do anything."
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Which is funny. I was like, I would expect a church... They were sort of like a mega church version in a small town. I would expect them to, like, get all hands on deck, but I think that they just used lots of volunteer labor, I guess.
DL: I'm sure. I'm sure. So yeah, we never, like, my family didn't spend lavishly on Christmas gifts, so I don't remember... I mean, I would get excited, but it's also like, "Don't get your hopes up too much," and there was a few years it's like we got, like, a duffel, like, a handkerchief full of things, like, one year. You know? That was it.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And it's like, "Don't be sad." You know? We were in Wyoming at the time, so it was like, "God wants us to be on a mission field," or whatever. But I remember one year I got an Easy-Bake Oven and it was the best thing ever. And that's all I remember as far as birthdays or Christmases getting a present that I truly loved. This one time I got a Easy-Bake Oven. And I was like, "I'm so fucking happy." I mean, you know?
Krispin: Uh-huh, yeah. Right. Yeah.
DL: And then I felt guilty.
Krispin: Ah.
DL: And I had to make sure later on, Christmas night after everybody went to bed, I stayed up and looked at the lights and made sure I connected with Jesus, and, you know?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: It's just wild to think how I was doing this to myself, as a young child.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: You know? I think I was seven.
Krispin: Yeah. Right.
DL: And just feeling guilty about how happy I felt, to get a present I actually liked, you know? Blew my mind.
Krispin: Yeah. Right. Yeah. This month we are releasing a Patreon episode about middle childhood and emotional development. And how you're taught to relate to your emotions, and we're going to be talking about that, the dynamics where you feel guilty for feeling excited about non-religious things.
DL: Yeah. Yeah.
Krispin: So yeah. We're going to dig into that, 'cause that's so common and so sad.
DL: Yeah. And so think about the things we've already just mentioned about childhood. We've talked about music. We've talked about light. You've talked about a wreath. We've talked about presents. We've talked about these gatherings. We've even talked about being in these seasonal plays. It's kind of fascinating. Like, these are probably things people have done to celebrate the solstice, and then we just put on all this bizarre stuff.
Like I said, one of the evangelistic Christmas plays I was in, I was a dancing can of tuna. The other one I was... It was about this woman doctor who needed a new heart, and I was an angel. And then the third one, I was the evil innkeeper who didn't let Jesus have a place to stay. And it's just so funny to think about how weird these Christian musicals were, right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Yes. Exactly.
DL: And yet both you and I, I mean, that's why we fell in love. Because we had all that.
Krispin: Right. You know, I mentioned briefly the synopsis of the play I was in. One of the stories was about... It wasn't just about Noah. It was about the flood, because they used "Flood" by Jars of Clay to do this, like, modern dance.
DL: Oh my God.
Krispin: But then you think about, like, what is this actually about?
DL: About a genocide. Of the entire world.
Krispin: Yes. Exactly. Yes. Right.
DL: Uh-huh. Great.
Krispin: But we're doing it in a church in Roseburg, Oregon.
DL: If anybody's been to Roseburg, I hope this colors your perspective of this story. Oregon's not all Portland, I'll just say that. I had a question though, because for me, certain songs are really important for Christmastime.
Krispin: Mm-hmm
DL: I was really into "Carol of the Bells." Like, really into it when I was a kid. And then also, like, TV specials, because my parents were really into, like, this is the time of year when mainstream media actually talks about Christianity and we need to support it. So when the "Charlie Brown" Christmas special would come on, we would make sure to watch it as it aired, on network TV. Do you remember doing anything like that?
Krispin: Yeah. I remember that my mom would record all the specials because we couldn't stay up that late, was what I remember. And it, yeah, it felt really special in part because we just didn't have that much media. Right? We were just watching the same VHS tapes over and over. So that, and it just felt like a tradition. And yeah, can I share my favorite Christmas special now?
DL: Oh, no. Why didn't I even think to ask you this? Are you going to talk about the weird troll guy again?
Krispin: Ohhh. I had forgotten about that.
DL: Okay, no, nevermind! I didn't say anything. I didn't say anything!
Krispin: *singing* Down from the mountain. The mountain.
DL: No. I didn’t say anything.
Krispin: I forgot about the troll prince.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Yeah, is that what it's called? Yeah, which was this fever dream of a Hanna-Barbera cartoon that then at the end resolves about Jesus giving you a new heart.
DL: Yep. Great.
Krispin: I was thinking about "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer," the claymation.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: I loved the claymation.
DL: We love a claymation.
Krispin: And I really related to Hermey because, you know, I really felt like an outsider a lot as a kid.
DL: Hermey's very gender non-conforming. Right?
Krispin: Yes. Exactly.
DL: Yeah. Totally.
Krispin: Yes.
DL: It's funny, I always identified with Rudolph.
Krispin: Yeah, definitely that feeling of like, "I'm different than what my parents and community expect me to be," so.
DL: Yeah. You're tap dancing through fifth grade, bro.
Krispin: Exactly.
DL: In Roseburg. They didn't know what to do with you.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: I personally love the Peanuts one, like I just mentioned. Charlie Brown, like when Linus finally got to quote the scripture, was like, "Oh my God."
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: "This is so cool," like, "Christianity's so cool." But actually, the entire theme of that little special is about the emptiness of capitalism, and, you know?
Krispin: Right. Yeah.
DL: Which is kind of amazing! I think it still kinda holds up.
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: Yeah, I'm just trying to think about getting in touch when you were a kid, if you're listening to this, what did you like about this season? What did you not like? What do you remember? It's just kind of an interesting exercise to think about. And then we're going to switch into the teen years.
Krispin: Yes.
DL: What was it like to be an evangelical teenager during the Christmas season? What comes up for you, Krispin?
Krispin: I remember making my own magic.
DL: What do you mean?
Krispin: I know that sounds weird, but let me explain. For one, I was a missionary kid.
DL: Oh, right.
Krispin: So there wasn't a lot of the, like, cultural stuff around.
DL: You were in China.
Krispin: I was in China. But I remember I put Christmas lights up in my room, and I listened to Steven Curtis Chapman's Christmas album which I loved.
DL: He had a Christmas album?
Krispin: Uh-huh. Yeah. It's super, super cheesy, but it's very Steven Curtis Chapman if you love Steven Curtis Chapman, which I, you know, did at one point.
DL: Okay, can I shout out "Tender Tennessee Christmas" by Amy Grant?
Krispin: Uh-huh.
DL: That was, that was probably still my favorite from the old days.
Krispin: In my notes here I have, "I also love the Christmas album by Michael W. Smooth."
DL: Smooth?
Krispin: It auto-corrected
DL: Smitty wishes he was smooth.
Krispin: It auto-corrected. Not from Smith. I think I had, like, mistyped it, but then it was instead of going auto-correcting to Smith, it did Smooth, and I was like, "Yeah, Michael W. Smooth."
DL: Now, is this the season where you got into the John Tesh sexy Christmas music?
Krispin: Yes. Uh-huh. As well. Yep.
DL: Okay. Okay.
Krispin: Yeah, because yeah, there was this John Tesh album, just instrumental piano, but on the front of the cover, I believe, is him and his wife sitting on a couch, and on the back is their clothes strewn across the couch.
DL: Including undergarments.
Krispin: Including sexy black underwear.
DL: Imprinted on you.
Krispin: Yep. In a way that inspired me to later make Spotify sexy Christmas playlists that I didn't know were public.
DL: Oh my God! I forgot about that. Yeah. Okay.
Krispin: Yeah. So that was definitely part of it. I also remember thinking, being in China, in this city of 20 million people who don't know about Jesus, being like, "Why are we celebrating Jesus coming?" Like, this doesn't make sense if millions of people are going to go to hell.
DL: Yeah, Yeah.
Krispin: So being like, why are we celebrating?
DL: Being in another culture probably brought up some questions about the rituals and the holiday.
Krispin: Yes, exactly. But I also remember really trying to make it feel significant at the same time, you know? So yeah. How about for you?
DL: Yeah, I think as an adolescent I tried just to be more into it. I mean, if people listen to my story though, they know that my teenage years were pretty stressful, right? I thought it was the end of the world. I thought my mom was going to die. Because she told me all this stuff. And so I think that's when I started shifting into, like, the Advent mindset, which is the world is horrible, horrible things are happening. Don't worry, Jesus will someday make everything good. Not today, you know.
Krispin: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
DL: But in, in the future when he comes back. And so I really kinda leaned into that stuff. When I was 17, I joined YWAM and went to India and was there for December. And so I also had this experience of being in another country, being like, "Oh," you know, "this is just something we do."
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: They have Diwali. You know, they have their own stuff.
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: And so that was interesting too, to be like, "Oh, not everybody does it the way... You know, when you're young, you don't think through all that. And then you, so both you and I had that experience of being overseas. But I do remember being very into... So, like, music is a big deal for teenagers. I was in an evangelistic punk rock band. And I got really into Tooth & Nail started putting out these, like, holiday sampler CDs called Happy Christmas.
Krispin: Tooth & Nail Records for those that don't know.
DL: Tooth & Nail Records. And so this is, like, alternative Christian music, and this was the peak period for this. Like, '98, '99, 2000, you know? And Happy Christmas Volume 2 was my shit.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: It started off with an MxPx song which I was obsessed with.
Krispin: What song was it? I can't remember.
DL: Is it just called- what is it called? Just Happy Christmas or something?
Yeah, that sounds right.
DL: I have it right here. It's called Christmas Day.
Krispin: Okay.
DL: I actually made a claymation to it. Bringing back claymation for my high school.
Krispin: Uh-huh, of course you did.
DL: When I finally went to high school, I made a claymation to that song which I thought was amazing. And looking back, it's probably a lot like Ben Wyatt's from Parks and Rec. If you know, you know. How could a depressed person make a claymation to a MxPx Christmas song? But I feel like I was evangelizing my school.
Krispin: Right.
DL: Because we put that in the morning announcements. Then there's, Sixpence None the Richer did "You're a Mean One, Mr. Grinch."
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: I don't know if anybody remembers any of this stuff. Joy Electric, "Lollipop Parade." We had The Lost Dogs, which is a deep cut, singing the Chipmunk Song.
Krispin: Uh-huh.
DL: I would just listen to this over and over and over again as a teenager. Now there's a song on this Happy Christmas Volume Two that I know you want to talk about.
Krispin: Yes. Before we go there we have to let people know that we're going to be talking about Tooth & Nail bands next year. Early next year.
DL: Oh my God. Oh my God.
Krispin: We're making some plans to talk about our favorite Tooth & Nail bands kind of around our 10-year anniversary of this podcast.
DL: Shame Core Records
Krispin: Yeah, part two.
DL: Part two, Electric Boogaloo. Right?
Krispin: Yep, exactly. So yeah, if you're, like, vibing with the, the Happy Christmas Volume Two memories, or just the mention of Tooth & Nail records-
DL: Or Joy Electric, my God.
Krispin: Yes. We're going to talk about all of these in a few months, so stay tuned for that. But yes, now we need to talk about the song "O Peace Child" by The Normals.
DL: I think it's just called "Peace Child," but yeah.
Krispin: Oh.
DL: By The Normals. Now maybe people don't even know who this is, but this was a song I really liked on this list. How did you come to it?
Krispin: Same way, I believe. I'm trying to remember. I think this was the first Normal song that I listened to, but perhaps it wasn't. I was really into The Normals.
DL: Oh, I was not.
Krispin: And I was really into Andrew Osenga after he left The Normals, and I'm somehow still on his mailing list, so every month I get a Bible reading plan from him.
DL: Oh my God. Andrew Osenga. So we're going to talk about all this in our Tooth & Nail season.
Krispin: I don't even think The Normals... I don't know if they were even on Tooth & Nail records, but they somehow got onto this album by the way.
DL: Yeah. And this, that's because, like, Tooth & Nail was, like, a micro movement. You know what I mean?
Krispin: Yes. Uh-huh.
DL: And to be an adolescent, an evangelical adolescent at this time period was to feel cool.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Tooth & Nail had some cred.
Krispin: Right.
DL: Now, I don't think they earned it or deserved it, but, for me, it was a lifeline, and yet, as you and I have talked about so much, that's a part of this whole religious authoritarian thing when it comes to adolescents.
They give adolescents the illusion of choice, of diversity of thought, of, like, you're your own person, but in reality, your parents are just buying you Happy Christmas Volume Two from Tooth & Nail. You know what I mean? It's carefully curated, carefully selected all about Christmas, which kinda keeps you in the fold, you know?
Krispin: Right. Yeah.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Yeah. I just did a fact-check because of the music nerd in me. They were on ForeFront Records which was the DC Talk label, but they somehow weaseled their way onto this mix. And I think for people like you and I, it felt so significant.
DL: Yes.
Krispin: Right? Like this...It's a very reflective... You know, it kinda fits that mood of a candlelight service. Right?
DL: Yeah. The song "Peace Child"?
Krispin: Uh-huh.
DL: Okay. Yeah. Right. Explain it to people.
Krispin: Yeah, I mean, it's just, it's just acoustic guitar, and the chorus is, "O come, o come, Emmanuel," you know, like steals, borrows from the old hymn. But then the verses are different.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And I was like, "Oh yeah, I remember the song." And then I was looking at the lyrics, and I was like, "We have to talk about the lyrics."
DL: Okay, okay.
Krispin: Because this is how it starts: “Take me to the place where we're children again,” which I think was part of why I liked it, because I like the nostalgia.
DL: Nostalgia. Yeah.
Krispin: “And we crawl on the lap of the peace child.”
DL: Just to clarify, the peace child is Jesus?
Krispin: In a manger.
DL: In a manger!
Krispin: So we crawl on his lap.
DL: We're crawling all over his lap. Yes. Okay.
Krispin: It just doesn't make any sense. Like, it's combining Santa with Jesus in a manger. I don't know. And there's a lot of words in the song but I was like, we also have to talk about the second verse of this. This is what it says. "We look to be upright as we grasp for a chance, but we're too dirty to dance for the peace child."
DL: We're too dirty to dance.
Krispin: For the peace child.
DL: For the peace child.
Krispin: There's the peace child in the manger who wants us to dance for him but we're too dirty.
DL: We're too dirty. Yeah.
Krispin: “But the sunset and its red floods the world with its rays like the blood of the babe, of the peace child." Takes a dark turn.
DL: Hey bros, this baby going to die. His blood's going to run all for you, you little dirty dancer.
Krispin: It like... And yeah, I mean it just… child sacrifice is the phrase that comes to mind.
DL: Yeah. That's our religion by the way.
Krispin: Right?
DL: That was it. So cool, cool, cool.
Krispin: Uh-huh. "And the dead can now sing at the throne of the king 'cause heaven is full of us peasants."
DL: Peasants! Yes. That came outta nowhere to me.
Krispin: I know.
DL: Well I was sort of, sorta stuck on like, hey, Andrew Osenga is just making it clear this is a resurrection cult built on child sacrifice. So great. That's what the peace child song is. We were really into it. You know what comes right after that song?
Krispin: What?
DL: "I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus" by Fanmail.
Krispin: Exactly.
DL: Everyone just go listen to "Peace Child." You know what I was like, I have to talk about, if you're going to talk about "Peace Child" the song, I have to talk about "Peace Child" the book, which has nothing to do with Christmas, but it was by Don Richardson, and it's about him and his wife going to a cannibalistic tribe in Papua New Guinea and converting them to Christianity, which I read over and over and over again, and it horrifies me to my soul today.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: There. I read that a lot when I was adolescent, so you know.
Krispin: “Peace Child."
DL:Wow.
Krispin: I have to add one thing in here. In my teen years, this was maybe more like freshman year of college, but I was definitely a teenager, and I remember there were a lot of complicated feelings because this particular Christmas, my parents were in China, I was in the US.
I didn't really want to celebrate with extended family, so I was like, "I'm just going to go to a soup kitchen, and I'm just going to serve there to do something actually meaningful on Christmas because all of this is bullshit."
DL: Oh my God, I'm extremely attracted to you right now.
Krispin: And then my parents were like, "You're going to hurt everyone's feelings if you do that, so you can't," so I didn't.
DL: But that's what I dreamed about doing. One year for Thanksgiving, my parents had us all serve at a soup kitchen, and I would never forget that the rest of my life. Like, this is what you should be doing.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Because they were telling us all this stuff about Jesus is the reason for all of this. It's like, yeah, shouldn't you be helping people? You know? Like, during this time. So I agree. I would much prefer to do that than sit around with extended family members. And I just remember feeling very unseen and unheard and you know, like looking back, I never got presents I really liked because people didn't really know me, or what I liked, and yeah. So that's adolescence for me. I was trying so hard to be into it for the right reasons.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: You know what I mean? Now, switch to early adulthood. Now, most of my early adulthood is intertwined with you.
Krispin: Uh-huh. Yes, exactly.
DL: Because we met at evangelical Bible College.
Krispin: We got married when I was 21 years old.
DL: Barely 21.
Krispin: I had just turned 21, like two months before.
DL: Barely 21. And, you know I was just, what? A few years older than you. I felt like I'd lived a lot of life compared to you, but I really hadn't. So yeah, I think us getting married, we enjoyed being poor. And at that point in my life, I was living and working in refugee and immigrant communities and trying to share some holiday traditions, but also being like, "These people don't really care about it." You know?
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
DL: And what do you remember from this period?
Krispin: Yeah, I remember... I was trying to, like, put it together because it was both very millennial optimism.
DL: Yes.
Krispin: Right? Like She & Him came out with that Christmas album everybody was like, "This is so cool."
DL: I wore a lot of scarves.
Krispin: You wore a lot of scarves. Our house was littered with glitter deer.
DL: I was really into glitter at this point in my life and decorating things with glitter. And I bought these little reindeer that were covered in glitter.
Krispin: Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. Exactly. Uh-huh.
DL: I was really into that.
Krispin: Like bright pink. We had a bright pink little plastic tree.
DL: Yes.
Krispin: Uh-huh. And we did have a crappy little record player that we listened to Amy Grant on I believe.
DL: Yes. Uh-huh.
Krispin: Because we had a Tender Tennessee Christmas party.
DL: Yes, I do remember that.
Krispin: Uh-huh. So there was all this kind of like, yeah, we're like young adults and we're cool and we get to make our own Christmas, you know?
DL: Yeah, Buy Nothing Christmas. Do you remember this?
Krispin: Yes. But then there was also this like, yeah, Buy Nothing Christmas part.
DL: I feel like Jen Hatmaker was really into that for a while.
Krispin: Uh-huh.
DL: Which is fascinating because now she sells everything she can possibly sell to her followers.
Krispin: Uh-huh. So, fascinating.
DL: But yeah, we were so into that. Like, do it yourself, make little Christmas presents and, you know, reach... Like, help out your community during this time. Like that's, really where we were kind of focused. It's funny that people talk about millennial optimism, like that was definitely us.
Definitely us. We were like, you know, Obama's president, everything's fine, we don't have to think about anything. Yet we had to work so many jobs, just to pay rent. And so we were really busy. That's what I remember.
Krispin: Yeah. Yes, that's true.
DL: Like I worked at like Starbucks during this time. Starbucks in December.
Krispin: You were also teaching at PCC.
DL: Yeah, I was teaching, I was... It was so much.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: I worked at retail, you know.
Krispin: Yeah, PCC was Portland Community College. So you were teaching English.
DL: Yeah, so I was teaching English. Yeah. So we were working multiple jobs, then we had a kid. And we liked doing some of the Christmas stuff with a kid, but also having a kid just kinda torpedoes everything that you're used to doing, right?
Krispin: Yeah. That being said, in November 2010, you wrote an article for Relevant Magazine.
DL: No. No! Why are you doing this to me? I’m furious. You've never once brought up an old piece of writing to me.
Krispin: Called "Christmas Charity Isn't The Answer."
DL: Oh my God.
Krispin: And I think it's the first thing that you had published, perhaps.
DL: The first thing I had published was for an offshoot of Relevant Magazine called "Reject Apathy" about Mr. Rogers.
Krispin: Okay. Uh-huh.
DL: But this is probably up there in early times. What did I say? I wrote about Christmas so much back in the day.
Krispin: Right, yes. Basically, you were like- I'm not going to read any of it.
DL: Good. Please.
Krispin: But it just basically was-
DL: Don’t fall out of love with me.
Krispin: Hahaha. It basically was criticizing mega churches for giving out food on Christmas when they're not actually working towards the day-to-day needs of people.
DL: Oh, well, great.
Krispin: It was very oriented... It was very because we were in our Shane Claiborne era.
DL: Ugh.
Krispin: So it was very oriented around, like, this isn't political, you need relationships with people that are in different places than you.
DL: Yes, because Shane Claiborne was really big into saying the problem is not that there's rich people and poor people, the problem is that rich people don't know any poor people.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Which I guess that was my entryway into leftism, because now I'm like, "No. It's the rich.It's the billionaires. They're definitely the problem here.
Krispin: Uh-huh. Yeah. Right.
DL: But that sounds like something I would write.
Krispin: Uh-huh. Yeah. Because the way I found that was going back through old Facebook posts every December through the years to kind of prepare for this episode.
DL: Wow.
Krispin: And yeah, I saw myself posting about whatever song this is: "His law is love and His gospel is peace, and in His name all oppression shall cease."
DL: All oppression.
Krispin: Right? We were definitely in that phase of like, if we're going to talk about Christmas, we have to talk about oppressive systems.
DL: Oh my God, one year I got to write for The Washington Post about Mary's Magnificat.
Krispin: Oh, uh-huh.
DL: And I was like, "This is peak. This is peak," because the Magnificat fucking slaps. Cast down the mighty, send the rich away empty." Yeah. Hello. So I was really into that.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: I had a Magnificat season for sure.
Krispin: Yes. Uh-huh.
DL: Yeah, and I remember, too the millennial optimism into like, "Hey, charity kinda sucks. Maybe the entire system needs to change. But I guess we’re just going to wait for Jesus to come back.” You know? Then we got into Advent.
Krispin: Yes.
DL: How do you explain Advent to people who didn't grow up with this or, like, their church never did Advent.
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: Let's do it in a very non-theological sense.
Krispin: Right, yeah. Advent, I think mainline churches do it. It follows the church calendar, and basically it is the Sundays leading up to Christmas where you're reflecting on the coming of Jesus. Is that right?
DL: Okay, sure. I don't know. It just seemed more liturgical than things like I did. Like, my parents never did Advent. My dad's churches never did Advent. So to me, you kind of introduced me to that concept, but then all the progressive Christians were doing it, and it's like slowing down, being, you know, more meticulous about it, talking about the prophets.
And so I remember sort of forcing you to do Advent with our kid, and then kids when we had two kids. What do you remember about that?
Krispin: Yeah. I remember I wanted to do it, but I also felt so busy that it was like, "Well, this is like another thing on top of everything else," which is just my, like, personality.
DL: Well, do you think I was just being weird? Like, "You're the spiritual guy, you need to do it," because I was actually the spiritual head of the household for sure.
Krispin: Uh-huh. I think there was a little bit of that at one point.
DL: Like, "You need to lead this Krispin.” But I’m not like that. So maybe I was like, "You grew up with doing Advent, you should do it."
Krispin: Yes. I think it was that. I think it was like, "You're the one that knows how to do this. You have to do it."
DL: And our kids were not really into it.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And I think that was an interesting part of our journey is that the kids just weren't into any of the, like, trying to make it special.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
DL: And even, like, we lived by my parents, and so we would be pressured into going to lots of Christmas Eve services at my dad's church, which I really didn't like, and having to take our kids and, you know.
Krispin: The laser shows.
DL: Oh my God.
Krispin: Right?
DL: You guys know how much money these churches spend on their displays? It made me physically ill.
Krispin: Yeah. But we have to talk about what Advent meant to progressive Christians. Right?
DL: Okay. Yeah.
Krispin: Because I think Advent was its own time of, for us as progressive Christians, it was like, yeah, there is real suffering in the world. Things are really horrible.
DL: Yes. Yeah.
Krispin: We're disconnecting from this evangelical idea that things are great because God answers prayer, and if you suffer, it's just because you haven't followed, you know, the economic instructions that God has given or you're not praying enough or whatever.
It's like, no, there is real suffering in the world, and we are tasked with waiting and keeping hope that Jesus will come and make everything good in the future.
DL: Wow. As you were talking, I felt like I had been transported back to my early 30s.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And I fucked with Advent, man. I vied with it because I was being so overwhelmed. Living and working in refugee communities in the United States, so much was going on, and so many people needed so much help, and had experienced so much trauma and suffering. And all I had were, like, Christian phrases or Bible verses to comfort me, which wasn't enough. And so Advent, I feel like my depression and my deep sadness over the inequality of the world and the injustice of the world, right?
I was able to express that in this season and also know, it's going to tie up with a bow at the end, right? Jesus is coming. It'll all be made new one day.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And that felt so helpful to me. And now I can look back and be like, "I don't think it was." I don't know. Maybe it's not as black or white as that, but I feel like I just have so many better tools for dealing with existentialism, for dealing with low moods, for dealing with a sense of hopelessness or impending doom, and my hope comes from being grounded in my values, in my body, in safe community.
You know, I have many more, so many better resources, I guess, than Advent. Yeah, I see why people are drawn to it. For me, it was because I was super freaking depressed.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
DL: What do you think?
Krispin: Yeah. Yeah, I think that it was helpful in the sense that it was a way that you could get in touch with the bad feelings without having to totally give up your faith, you know? So, or like, I'm talking about me. Let me rephrase that.
DL: No, I see what you're saying.
Krispin: Yeah, I think in a time where I would not have been able to totally leave Christianity, it allowed me to be like, "Yeah, things are not all that great in the world."
DL: Yeah. When I'm thinking about remembering Christmases past, this is the hardest part for me because this is when I got really into Christmas. Not commercial Christmas, but Advent and Christmas. You get to feel all these feelings you have about things not being okay in the world.
I remember the second Target would start to put out Christmas stuff. I would be like, "I just need to go and walk around. And walk around the Christmas stuff.” And, you know my friends would have countdown to Christmas on their Facebook. I'm like, "Ugh, I need Christmas. Oh my God, I need it. I need it." Like, eggnog as soon as it appears in stores. Like, one year didn't we put up the Christmas tree before Halloween even?
Krispin: Yes. Uh-huh. We did.
DL: You know what I mean?
Krispin: Yep. Mm-hmm.
DL: Cause we weren't that into Halloween.
Krispin: Right, and that was edging into COVID years. So it was probably 2021.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And we were struggling so much mental health-wise, and it's just like, yeah, I just want something to bring a little joy.
DL: Yeah, and so I just think about that, like, wanting to go to Target as soon as they put out the Christmas stuff, and now it's like, yikes. I want to avoid all stores during the season.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: It's been such a huge shift in me. But maybe I became so obsessed with Christmas and recreating the feelings of Christmas because I was sort of on my way out?.I don’t know.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
DL: I have no idea.
Krispin: I think, especially if we're thinking about this in terms of COVID, our lives were just so limited. And that's something you can do in your home that feels cozy. You know?
DL: Yeah, that's true. So just trying to hold onto some normalcy, I suppose.
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: But I also feel like during that time, during the COVID years, I remember holidays not feeling very special because we were just in a bubble with the same people, and so it's just like getting together... I remember getting together for Thanksgiving and Christmas and being like, "You're the only people that I see every week, so this just feels like more of the same."
DL: And it was my family, so.
DL: Yeah. Okay, well the next shift after COVID is we both ended up leaving Christianity altogether. Now, do you remember what Christmas was like the first year you were not a Christian?
Krispin: I feel like I was already in that head space of like, I've spent so much of my life trying to make Christmas be spiritually significant and, you know, feeling guilty like you did with the oven. I remember part of it was like writing my book and kind of processing so much of like what does an actually healthy Christianity look like for me? So I feel like I'd actually started to make that shift a little bit before and say it's really okay for Christmas to just be a cozy time.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And to really lean into like these, not the commercialism, but the American traditions of eating yummy things and looking at lights and all of that. So I felt like I'd been in this process of giving myself permission, and it also felt weird the first year because it's like I don't believe in Jesus anymore.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: So this is... Even though I'd been making this shift of putting less pressure on myself, now I'm like, "Oh, here's this holiday that everyone is celebrating and that meant something specific to me for, you know, nearly 40 years, and now it doesn't mean that anymore. That's weird.”
DL: Yeah. I experienced a lot of different feelings, and some years I wanted nothing to do with Christmas. Other years I had a deep desire to connect with some of the practices. But I think it was yet one more example of me being like, "Wow, leaving Christianity has a huge cost because I've lost this, too."
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: You know? Like, I used to check in with God 100 times a day, you know?
Krispin: Uh-huh.
DL: Thinking I was helping myself. In reality, I was caught in an OCD loop, right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Same with Christmas. It's like I thought this was a time for helping me get through the entire year. When in reality, I just... It let off some of that pressure internally, so I didn't explode, but it didn't actually help me resolve anything and...But I lost it. I lost that sense of comfort, and yet, you know, I am a cozy bee.
And so I love this time of year just for those kinds of things. I love soup. I love gravy. I love cold weather. I love lights. I love the smell of pine trees. So there's things I still really like, but I think just thinking about even being a kid and my parents being like, "It's so important, the Jesus stories on TV with Peanuts and the music is in the department stores and it's amazing because this is true. This is the only reason for the season.”
Now, on the other end, side of it, I'm like- Whoa. I grew up being told Christians are a persecuted minority in America. This is like the one time a year we finally get to be out there. On the other side of it, I'm like, "It's freaking everywhere." And I hate it. It's been so triggering.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Religious Christmas music has become extremely triggering for me. And I do not enjoy, at the best of times, being in a grocery store. When it's extra crowded and blasting "O Come, O Come Emmanuel," it's like 10 times worse.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And so now I’m angry at Christmas, and the Christmas propaganda, both the consumerism and the religion. So I just, I've been sort of shocked by how I don't like being in public places in the weeks leading up to Christmas. Does that make sense?
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
DL: That surprised me.
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: Yeah, I think the truth is we're still trying to figure out what this all means to us, and that's why we're really excited to have this conversation with our friend Jenny on December 6th, because reclaiming this seasonal connections, I think is really important work just for future casting and for being grounded and present, you know, in our actual world. But all of us are still in this messy middle of trying to figure out what do we do with all of this childhood stuff around the holidays?
And I guess we can include Thanksgiving in there, we can include Christmas, you know these big cultural holidays here in America. And I guess what I want to say is, it's okay if every year it's different you know?
Krispin: Uh-huh. Yeah.
DL: If you're just figuring stuff out. But as we've been talking about boundaries and estrangement for quite a bit on this podcast, just because that's what happens in religious authoritarian families and communities, I wondered if there's a way to sort of think about boundaries and the holiday season. What do you think, Krispin?
Krispin: Yeah. Because I realize that we're talking a lot about the personal experience of the holidays, and the big subtext here is that it's a time typically or historically, where you're spending time with family.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And things are just continually more and more strained between conservative parents and their adult children.
DL: And I think that brings up a lot of grief for people.
Krispin: Right. Uh-huh.
DL: Right? Because as things change, as your relationship changes with people, even with yourself with holidays, it has all this extra baggage and layers of like, I celebrated it this way for so many years with my family. I think it's okay for me to say there's a lot of that I miss, and yet when I really think about it, it's like, oh yeah, I didn't really feel very seen or heard. You know?
Krispin: Yeah. I was just thinking about all the cracks in these relationships in different ways. So obviously politically is one, but something I was thinking about as we were thinking about the COVID years was the tension that came up for a lot of families around vaccines or testing or all of that, and I think that that was really significant. And then I think also just the, you know, these rigid authoritarian families really struggle to change and adapt to the needs of more vulnerable members.
So that sounds really abstract, but I mean that idea of the parents are like, "Well, you always need to come to our house for Christmas." But now everyone has kids and maybe that doesn't make the most sense, but they're just holding on to this is the way it has to be.
DL: Yeah. We don't have time to get too into it, but I do want to kind of end here talking about the reality that many people find themselves in, is this tension of like, what do I want, versus what are the expectations? And I just immediately think of Hallmark Channel movies, you know?
Krispin: Yeah. Uh-huh.
DL: Where the girl goes back to her small town to be with her parents. You know? Finds a guy there, marries him, has kids, never leaves. They celebrate every Christmas, you know?
Krispin: Yeah, right.
DL: I'm like, whoa, what if you ever want to do something different?
Krispin: Right. Yeah. I mean, what I want to say is it's okay if you don't really feel like celebrating with people who voted us into the hellscape we're living in right now.
DL: Okay.
Krispin: Right? If that feels incongruous to you, that is totally a normal feeling.
DL: Yes.
Krispin: Right? It's also okay if it feels easier to just go through it and get on with normal life.
DL: Like just show up for the holidays, then leave.
Krispin: Right.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Yeah. For some people it's like, yeah, I don't actually see these people that often, and I can do a holiday. It's also okay to show up for if maybe there are people that you do want to see.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Right? Or I think about like nieces or nephews, that you're like, I am really mad at my parents, but I don't want to miss out on this either. So I think that there's just so much room for lots of different things.
You could go to a holiday event and decide very apparently to not talk to the boomer conservative that's there that you didn't know was going to show up, which is what I did last year.
DL: Yep. Yeah, I just think, I, you know, I have my own thoughts on it too, but we'll kind of unpack this a bit more in our Zoom gathering.
Just one of the best things I think you can do is get in touch with what you want. And I know that can be scary, because that might put you at odds with what the expectations are or what the family culture is. But you're worth it, you know? It's worth it to figure out what you want, and that's why we just love the queer community.
We love this idea of found family and expanding the ideas of gatherings and, you know? I think it's important, but none of this can happen overnight, and there's just such huge cultural pressures that privilege and prioritize the patriarch. You know?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: I mean, really it's usually the matriarch of these RAP families, you know?
Krispin: I was going to say the matriarch.
DL: You have to do what they want to do, and as people who have neurodivergent children, we're like, "No. I think you should listen, do what the kids need.”
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: You know, even that alone was seen as rebellious on our part to try and prioritize what our kids need. But we don't regret it. We certainly don't regret prioritizing our kids for holidays. But I know this can just be a tough time for people. And I'm like, yeah, there's so many reasons why this could be a tough season.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And that's, I don't know, I just want to say that's really normal, but there's also a lot of cozy things that we can do to comfort ourselves. No matter what you decide for the holidays, I hope self-care is somewhere on the horizon for you.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: I was just thinking, I'm still not into Christmas. It's kinda hard 'cause we still have kids, so we have to do some of it.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: But I'm not really that into it. But yeah, our family, we take our kind of big vacation in January every year. So that's kind of one of our cyclical rhythms that we do, right?
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: When it's super dreary, in Oregon we go somewhere a little warmer in January. And you know? I was like, we do have things we do that still makes me feel connected and have something to look forward to.
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: You know?
Krispin: Uh-huh.
DL: Jesus isn't coming back, so we might as well go to LA in January. You know what I mean?
Krispin: Right. Yes. Uh-huh. Yeah. What is something, is there anything from your childhood that you still enjoy now and still feels good to you?
DL: Well, I don't know if it's from my childhood, but I do, like I mentioned, I love pine. And so foraging for pine branches, has been really fun. And I just love that smell. I can't really do candles as much anymore, but I kind of love that. I love cinnamon. I love baking. So, like, I don't want to celebrate colonizer day, but I love baking pies. And, you know, just kind of letting myself do those things.
Krispin: Yeah, yeah.
DL: We still love our fake Christmas tree. It's fine. It's kind of like, sure. But what about you?
Krispin: Yeah, I was going to say the Vince Guaraldi Peanuts record.
DL: Oh you do love that.
Krispin: I love that so much.
DL: You love it.
Krispin: That was my entryway into jazz.
DL: Adorable.
Krispin: Right? I think that is really important. And just, yeah, the coziness, as you know.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: You, D.L., not the audience. I really like lighting and lighting being good.
DL: Yes. Soft. Warm. Yes.
Krispin: So this is a great time to bring that on board. You know, setting up, we have a lot of electric candles that turn on automatically, which I love. That feels wintry, you know?
DL: Yeah. Totally. Totally. I mean, we could probably go on and on, but we'll probably just end it here just letting you know, if it's a weird time, we totally get it. If you are like us and you feel like maybe the winter should be about slowing down and not being pressured to buy and do and go to things and be miserable and grit your teeth and get through then you should join us for our gathering on December 6th.
We don't have a good title for it. Oh, Reclaiming the Winter Holidays. Is that what we decided?
Krispin: Yeah. Uh-huh. Yes.
DL: So come join us for that. Yeah. And you can see our faces as we talk through that. If you've been listening to us for almost 10 years, you've heard us talk about the holidays, you've heard us talk about Christmas. I don't even know how many articles I've written related to Christmas throughout the years.
Krispin: So true. Uh-huh.
DL: And here we are just doing it again.
Krispin: Yep.
DL: Are we stuck in a time loop?
Krispin: I mean yes, because Christmas keeps coming.
DL: I know. We are stuck in a time loop. It's time to hack our way out, isn't it? Isn't it?
Krispin: Oh my gosh, what if you wrote a sci-fi thriller?
DL: Yes!
Krispin: It's kind of like the alternate of Narnia. It's always winter, but never Christmas. But this-
DL: It's always Christmas, but never Yule.
Krispin: But this is like a dystopian, like you can never actually achieve justice until you end Christmas, and you're stuck in a time loop.
DL: Okay.
Krispin: Just a sci-fi book that someone should write.
DL: It's written. Done. Manifesting. Before we go, I just want to say thank you to everyone who supports this project. Thank you to everyone who has supported us on Patreon, on our website. It's such a lovely crew. You can go there now, listen to our religious terrorization episode, which people loved. Just because we rarely get a chance to talk about the things that truly terrified us as kids, and instead of just laughing it away, being like, "Mm, that kind of sucked, and probably has long-term impacts.”
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: So yeah. It's been going great, and thanks for all the support!
