The Prodigal Summer Series Part 2: Prodigal Parents

Welcome to STRONGWILLED, the multimedia project aimed at helping survivors of religious authoritarian parenting methods develop autonomy and find solidarity.This episode we discuss what Focus on the Family and James Dobson Institute recommending to estranged evangelical parents. We dig into what Dr. John Townsend (Peter Thiel-affiliated author of Boundaries) suggests to parents in order to mend their relationships in a video Focus on the Family published in 2022.

TW/CW: sexual abuse, physical abuse, complaints from estranged parents

You can read more about religious authoritarian parenting and also find the transcript for this podcast at⁠⁠⁠ strongwilledproject.com

You can join⁠⁠ ⁠our patreon community⁠⁠⁠ or⁠⁠⁠ at ghost to support this podcast and listen to our series about the developmental impacts of growing up in a high control religion, as well as join our discord community. 

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TRANSCRIPT

(transcript has been lightly edited for clarity)

Krispin: Welcome to the STRONGWILLED Podcast. This is the Prodigal Summer series, right? 

DL: Prodigal Summer. This is our second episode in the series, and if you listened to the first one, you got the vibe, okay? So we're not going to rehash all that.

Krispin: Basically, we're talking about something really intense that also makes us laugh sometimes. It is intense, and it also makes you laugh. 

DL: Here's the deal. I was in a snarky mood when we recorded the first episode. I'm in a rageful mood today. And for our third episode, it's actually going to be quite hopeful and quite positive, because our third and final episode in this series will be how to live your best prodigal life, you know?

But that's not today, Krispin. That's not today. This is episode two in our series, and today we will be looking at the prodigal parents, the estranged parent community in religious authoritarian spaces. We will be doing, once again, our journalism from the Facebook pages of Focus on the Family and James Dobson's Family Institute, just because these are groups with millions of people in them, um and people are just wilding out over there, and we can see it all.

So that's what we're going to be doing today. I don't have any extra caveats except to say, I'm really pissed off. So be prepared. If that troubles you, you're not going to like this episode.

Krispin: Well I was going to say that we're talking about, you know, parent-child relationships in adulthood, but there's a backdrop of religious authoritarianism in our country that they helped usher in.

DL: Oh is there? I hadn't noticed. I want to be clear, Donald Trump would not have been on the ballot three times and been elected twice if it wasn't for religious authoritarians voting for him. White evangelicals in particular, but people with this sort of political and religious leaning, they are the ones responsible for this. He would not have been elected without them.

Krispin: Yeah. 

DL: So. Let's just start there because that's the reality we live in. That's the reality those of us who have become estranged from our parents who are in this kind of cult have to start with anyways.

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: So that's where we're going. We're going to be talking about, what is the advice these communities are getting for the broken relationships they now have in their lives.

And to just kinda center where we're going with this episode we're really going to hone in on the grift of it. Okay? So that's what today's going to be about. 

Krispin: Yes. 

And it's a full circle grift because the majority of our content is about the parenting methods promoted by Focus on the Family and James Dobson's Family Institute, the corporal punishment, the, you know, attacking your child's will every time they assert it when they're like 18 months old. And these parents were told they could control their kids for life. 

Krispin: Right. 

DL: And that's, that's what they were sold way back when. Now, these same communities are just filled with parents who are saying, "My adult child doesn't want to talk to me, doesn't want to be a Christian, doesn't want to come home for vacations. I don't know what to do." 

Krispin: Right. 

DL: And so we're going to go over the advice they're giving in these communities to help repair these broken relationships. 

Krispin: Yeah. Just to make this really clear, so Focus on the Family that has been giving these communities parenting advice for decades and decades how to raise their kids.

DL: Focus on the Fascist Family, as we like to call it.

Krispin: Yes. Right. Now they're saying, "It's an epidemic. We're getting so many calls from parents that are saying, 'My adult children won't talk to me,' so we'll help you with that."

DL: Yeah.

Krispin: And not putting the two and two together. And it seems like they have this narrative, like I'm going to talk about a video that I watched, and the narrative that they have is like, "Well, you didn't parent your kids the way that we would have told you to." But it's like, no, this actually is...the calls you're getting, I think, are from the people that, you know, read Dobson.

DL: Well, exactly. I think it's almost like, and we'll unpack this a lot more, but they actually make so much room for a lot of different interpretations, but what I want to keep going back to is- 

Krispin: None of which blame the Dobson parenting of it all.

DL: Because it's about the grift. 

Krispin: Uh-huh. 

DL: They keep selling the simplistic solution that doesn't actually help anything.

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: They did that for people who are in the throes of parenting small children, parenting teenagers, and now they're doing it for the estranged parent community, which it turns out, the Venn diagram is a circle of those groups. So it's a grift. These organizations are making money off of giving horrific advice to people and ruining relationships.

So we're going to expose them. We're going to be mad. We're going to be funny. Buckle up. Buckle up, y'all, 'cause we're going to get into it. Krispin? There's a video series that Focus on the Family has been doing about how to help estrangement in your family that you first became aware of, was it two years ago?

Krispin: I think we talked about it a little bit on the podcast two years ago. Turns out that they initially published this video four years ago. So it's been around for a minute. 

DL: Four? Which makes sense. I mean, that makes sense to me. This issue didn't come out of nowhere, I'll say that. 

Krispin: No, right. And that is kinda wild because that means it was 2022, and I think that there's so many factors. 

DL: Yeah. 

Krispin: But I find that for a lot of folks, COVID was a time where they really reassessed, "How do I want to live my life? Do I want to keep going to the grocery store, or is it overwhelming?"

DL: Oh. Wow, way to pinpoint me there, buddy. 

Krispin: “Do I want to continue these friendships? Do I want to keep going to church?”

DL: Oh my God, that's a big one. Isn't it? 

Krispin: Right, exactly. So I think that there was this huge shakeup, so it's no surprise that Focus on the Family put out this video in 2022.

DL: Yeah, what is the video? Tell us about it. 

Krispin: Well before we go there, I want to tell you about the email that promoted the video. 

DL: I remember you telling me about this. I have such a distinct memory of it. So yeah, explain to the listeners. 

Krispin: Actually, I don't want to bury the lead. And I think actually naming the video and then reading the email is going to be a wonderful juxtaposition that sort of brings into relief the emotional immaturity. 

DL: Wonderful? You want to say wonderful? 

Krispin: Yes. 

DL: Okay. 

Krispin: Clarifying. 

DL: Clarifying, there we go

Krispin: Clarifying. The video is called "Healing Parent and Adult Child Relationships."

DL: Okay. 

Krispin: The email promoting this, I got this from the vice president of Focus on the Family, whatever. The subject is, "Do you wish this email was from your adult child?" 

“Hello, Krispin. They won't return your calls. They ignore your texts and emails. Either you have little to no idea of what they're actually doing or their only communication is to rub in your face the sinful lifestyle they've embraced.”

DL: I forgot about that! Rub in your face!

Krispin: Yes. Rub it in your face.

DL: They're just rubbing it in your face.

Krispin: Yes. “It wasn't supposed to turn out this way. You poured yourself out to help them grow from an innocent, precious child, so full of potential, into what you hoped would be a responsible, virtuous, capable adult. You envisioned moving from a caretaking parent into a trusted friend and confidant. You dreamed of a future where you, beaming with pride…”

Wait a minute, I thought pride was a sin. 

DL: Well, pride's going to be a theme this whole episode so here we go.

Krispin: Mm-hmm. “You, beaming with pride, would send your son or daughter out into the world. There, fortified by a deep personal faith in Christ, they would accomplish amazing things and reach out often with all their updates and with sincere gratitude for all you sacrificed to help them succeed.”

DL: I can't. I can’t.

Krispin: This is like a religious narcissist's dream, right? 

DL: And this, okay, so you found out about this two years ago. They send out this email quite a bit. 

Krispin: Yes. 

DL: Unchanged. 

Krispin: Yes. Right. Every like three months. 

DL: From Danny Huerta or whatever. 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: Every three months? 

Krispin: I think so. I don't know. 

And here's the pitch: "Instead, your child has grown into an adult who rejects you and everything you believe in. How could you possibly rebuild your relationship? We have something that might help." 

DL: Okay. Okay. What a pitch. Remember, they're all grifters. 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: What a grifter email. For one, who said anything about babies and kids being innocent in this worldview? That is not what Focus on the Family and Dr. Dobson taught people. They taught people to see their kids as sinful and deserving of punishment, you know? So it's so disingenuous. 

And yet there's so much that we, as people who are dealing with parents and loved ones in this cult, can glean from this, including this belief, like it just shores up this belief, like you did nothing wrong, you did everything right, when that's not true. Like that's not true at all. But what Focus on the Family does, just like what so many people who are fascists do well, I'm going to be honest, what they do well is they capitalize on the emotional immaturity and the emotions of a group of people and catalyze that to profit off of them. 

Krispin: Right.

DL: So this whole email, which again, is sort of like an abusive parent or emotionally immature parent's dream email. Very validating to them. Then they sell a cure. 

Krispin: Yeah. 

DL: Right? So that's what Dobson did to parents who didn't know what they were doing with their kids when they were little. Now they're doing that. So let's get into the cure that they're selling in this email and that Focus on the Family's been promoting for four-plus years now. And they still keep doing it. Right. Why don't you tell us what it is, Krispin? 

Krispin: Yeah. They sort of sell it as, like, a course.

DL: Yeah. 

Krispin: It's just a conversation between John Townsend, who co-wrote Boundaries.

DL: So Dr. John Townsend?

Krispin: The bestselling author of Boundaries.

DL: Boundaries.

Krispin: And the "Boundaries Bundle.” They mention that multiple times. 

DL: The "Boundaries Bundle?”

Krispin: Yes, which is more of the grift, right? It's not just the book, you have to get the whole bundle. You have to get "Boundaries for Your Marriage," "Boundaries for Your Teenager," "Boundaries for Your Adult Child." 

DL: I'm sure it works, too. I'm sure it's really good. So, we have to talk about the boundaries of it all for a minute. Now, the thing is, again, going back to the grift of it all, Focus on the Family, these courses are free.

So they're like, "We're amazing. We're doing this all for free for you guys. Just, you have to sign up, though. You have to give us your email." And then of course you can buy the books, you can buy the stuff, and you know. 

Krispin: Right. 

DL: There's definitely a call to that, but once you sign up for their email list, you are bombarded with emails telling you things are going horrible in the world and you must donate to this organization. Plus, this has been how they operate from day one. I'm reading this book called James Dobson's War on America by Gil Alexander-Moegerle. He worked with Dobson in, like, the first 10 years of Focus on the Family, and he said one of the things he was most disturbed by was the fact that Focus on the Family had such an extensive email list, or I guess it wasn't email back then, m- mailing list.

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: And what Focus would do is they would get sort of, like, vulnerable people on the mailing list by saying, like, "Do you not know how to parent your kids? We'll teach you how to do it. Just give us your email, whatever. Give us your mailing address.”

Krispin: Yeah. Back then it was mailing address. 

DL: I keep saying email. 

But they did a very successful switch, I will say that. And basically what they would do is they would sell these really simplistic cures to really big problems. And then when that didn't actually help at all, they would mobilize people who were really upset for political action, right?

People who were having issues in their interpersonal lives. They would be like, "Here, just pray more. It'll all work out." 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: The next email is, "The Democrats are taking over Washington. We have to stack the Supreme Court. Donate now," da, da. You know what I mean? And so mobilizing people who were sold these easy cures, those cures don't actually work.

Krispin: And what was it that Gil said in the book? Because he was an insider for, like, 10 years. 

DL: Yeah. 

Krispin: So that was really interesting to me that when people would say something like this, in this video, they're like, "If you donate to Focus we'll send you a book of boundaries." By the way, as two authors, it's like, man, it'd be so great to have a huge organization that's like, "We'll buy your books to send to people that donate to us."  

DL: Yeah

Krispin: That, that in and of itself is such a big, you know, you see how that financial system works. But you were saying that, if they would do that sort of thing of like, "We'll send you a book about parenting,” they would get some donations. But if it was like, you know, “The gays are winning the war on America,” they would get a lot more donations.

DL: Yes! So that's why they eventually switched over fully to the culture war stuff because people gave so much more money when you sent out those triggering, like, “The war on the Christians is happening.” And so that's how it slowly changed over the first 10 years. Of course, that's always been a part of it.

But so I just want to keep pointing out, these are grifters profiting off of people's pain, emotional immaturity, distress, family problems. They say they're selling cure. Now, can I talk about Dr. Townsend for a minute? 

Krispin: Yes. Uh-huh.

DL: Because the weirdest thing happened a few weeks ago!

Krispin: Yes! I forgot about this. I don't know how I forgot about it. 

DL: Because the fascism is fascis-ing right now. It's hard to keep up on it all. But Wired Magazine released this article about this secret dialogue group that Peter Thiel was starting or had been starting, kinda similar to these Epstein meet and greets, you know where all the people involved in weird shit got together and talked about it. 

Well Peter Thiel's been doing this, which is no surprise. We have a weird connection to him and his money funding things we've been a part of, and we left. Like, I've known this about Peter Thiel and his dialogue groups.

But anyways, they released this list. Of course, I go looking at the list, because I'm like, James Dobson is dead, but I'm going to still see what other Christians could be on this list. 

The name that stood out to me was Rick Warren. Okay?

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: The Purpose-Driven Fascist life, I suppose. So that was interesting. But then John Townsend was on the list. Now, this was not a very long list. 

Krispin: Uh-huh. 

DL: Not a very long list at all. And like a lot of tech bros, and then John Townsend. It just said he's the author of Boundaries and I was like, "That's the guy I keep seeing on Focus on the Family."

Krispin: Uh-huh. 

DL: And, like, the leaked stuff for this year's gathering in August for Dialogue was stuff like- 

Krispin: Right. I was going to say, also the guy whose books I had to read in a lot of my undergrad psychology classes at Bible college. It was only Townsend. 

DL: Yeah. And some of the classes, I guess, at this year's meeting for Dialogue were just, like, how to start a cult by the guy who started, like, prayer.com or something. There's another one like, how's your sex life? 

Krispin: Uh-huh.

DL: Batshit stuff. So John Townsend is a part of this secret group. By the way, I don't want to shame anybody, but when you watch these videos he did for Focus on the Family, which, what, four years ago or something? Have you noticed his hair dye? 

Krispin: Yes, I have.

DL: So let's just call him Hair Dye. 

Krispin: Okay, Hair Dye. 

DL: Hair Dye Townsend. 

Krispin: Hair Dye guy. 

DL: Hair Dye guy. I mean, do what you want to do. 

Krispin: Right. 

DL: But he's what? In his 70s? 

Krispin: Dye beard. 

DL: I don't think his hair should be that one note brown. 

Krispin: Yeah, right.

DL: He should have salt and pepper hair.

Krispin: Uh-huh. 

DL: Anywho, that's Dr. John Townsend. I'm sorry if his book, Boundaries, was important to you, because that's what people actually say. And if you didn't grow up in evangelicalism in particular, you might not know what this book is. Do you want to really quick talk about this book? 

Krispin: That being said, it's considered the classic.

DL: Outside of Christian circles too, right? 

Krispin: Yes. Right. So, like, I have had clients that have no background in Christianity or evangelicalism be like, "Yeah, I was at the library and I was trying to find a book on boundaries and the librarian said, ‘Oh, you have to read this book.’” And they're like, "I did not know it was a Christian book."

DL: Well, that's true about a bunch of stuff, isn't it? 

Krispin: Right. 

DL: Like the love languages stuff. So we have to get into the boundaries of it all a little bit, but we're not going to discuss the book. We're going to discuss the course or the talks that Townsend did. 

Krispin: Yes, and it's funny because it's like, “our seven video series,” but really it's just, like, a 45-minute interview they did with him, and then they chopped it into little blocks. 

DL: Well, let me tell you, they've been making a lot of money off of that one interview. 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. And it's with Jim Daly, who, if you have been around Focus for long, you know that he's the current president and has been around forever. 

DL: Ugh, the worst. Okay. Let's get into it. 

Krispin: Okay. So basically we're going to be talking about their advice, Dr. John Townsend's advice for how to mend your relationship with your adult child. But before we go there I needed to share just this little bit because it immediately enraged me. 

John Townsend: Okay, Now we've got a culture that's kinda the same way. 

Jim Daily: Uh-huh. 

John Townsend: That if you say something that you disagree with, um, you're out of my life. So the culture is saying, "Yeah, write anybody off that you disagree with," instead of, "Let's have a talk about it." That skill is no longer present like it used to be. 

Jim Daily: Yeah, which is so sad because that's how conflict gets taken care of, right?

Townsend: Absolutely. It's the only way.

Jim Dailey: And dealt with. 

DL: What? 

Krispin: Yes. So should we look at what Dobson says in the first pages of Dare to Discipline. 

DL: Yes. 

Krispin: He says, “Child psychologists who suggest parents should verbalize the child's feelings are totally getting it wrong. The conflict between a parent and child is not an inevitable understanding. It is something that demands you use spanking to quash.”

He says, “No heart-to-heart talk would resolve a nose-to-nose confrontation.” 

DL: Okay. Keep that in mind, everyone, because this is how disingenuous these people are. 

Krispin: They literally just said, the only way to work through conflict is through talking through it.

DL: To talk through it.

DL: No! You guys beat the shit out of us every time we tried to talk to you. Okay? Like, be for real. 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: Be for real. And before we even get more into it, I just want to say, you don't have to talk through shit with anybody. Especially people who have proven they don't deserve that. 

Krispin: Right.

DL: And for most of us, we have tried 1 billion times to talk through conflict. That is not the issue here. Okay, let's keep going. 

Krispin: Yeah. All right. So here is his main advice.

*Intro music plays* 

DL: Oh! Listen to this music. 

Krispin: Right? 

DL: It's like worship music 

Caller: Hi, Dr. Townsend. Um, I have a question for you.

Um, in the past, I have been divorced, and there's been a lack of communication within the family. And so, um, I have an estranged daughter, an adult daughter who, um, can't seem to find a way to forgive me. So my question is, there’s just how can I get that trust back and for her to find grace and mercy within herself for me?

John Townsend: First off, my heart just sank when I heard her story, and it's one that I hear way too much, and I'm sure y'all hear it way too much too. 

Jim Dailey: Correct. Yeah. 

John Townsend: Where a parent is in those years where you want to enjoy the relationship and you're growing up and flourishing and finding your own way, she doesn't have that, and all these years seem gone.

And when, when she said, "Well, how do I get her to trust me?" There's a step you've got to do before trust, and it has to do with building a bridge. This is how you build a bridge. In whatever way, when you've got an adult child who's estranged, whatever way they get communication, phone call, text, snail mail, you know, Zoom or having lunch, and if they'll meet you at any way, you send them that communication, and you say something like the following.

Um, "I'm so sorry about where things are and about how you feel about our relationship, and I miss you, and I would like for us to be connected again. And I want, um, to be sure that I know what I've done to hurt you. So I'd like to propose this. I'd like for us to meet, phone, Zoom, in person, and I want you to tell me everything in your experience I've done to hurt or alienate you."

“And I'm just going to be sitting there with a legal pad and a pen, and I'm going to write down everything you say. And you can take as long as you need to, because if it's a lot, I want to know a lot. And one thing I promise you is I'm not going to interrupt you and say, "Well, you misunderstood that part," or, ‘Well, I was having a hard time,’ or, ‘Well, how about the things you did?’

“I promise I won't do any of those things. I might say things like, ‘How did that feel?’ Or, ‘Tell me more,’ or, ‘Is there more information?’ But I want to hear from your heart what your experience is of the hurts I caused you.”

DL: Yeah right. We have to pause it. 

Krispin: Okay. 

DL: I'm sorry. Krispin! You're going to make me listen to how much more without popping in!

Krispin: Okay. 

DL: We have to stop this. Yes. Wow, we should've done some trigger warnings. 

Krispin: Yeah. 

DL: Because that's what I'm thinking this whole time is like, yeah, right. 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: Do you know of anyone, any religious authoritarian parent who has done that? 

Krispin: No!

DL: Or is able to do that? 

Krispin: No.

DL: That's the whole thing, is most of us have tried so many times to say what is hurtful. I think such a good example is, did you vote for Donald Trump? 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: And if our parents are like, "Well, da, da, da, da…” You know? 

Krispin: Yeah. 

DL: It's like, how many times can you say, "This is so hurtful that you would do this?" Like, we have told them!

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: And even if you haven't, like, who cares? You know what I mean? 

Krispin: Yeah. 

DL: But most of us have, and they do not ask to be told what they did wrong at all. They do not take notes and, and just silently take it. 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: Also, this is just bizarre. If you're estranged from someone, you can't just send a text or a call saying, "I need to hear everything I've done wrong, and we need to meet and repair this relationship." That also feels really shitty knowing these parents don't have the skills to do any of that. 

Krispin: Right. Exactly. And even in the voicemail message, let's talk about the dynamics that we felt there.

DL: Please. What did you feel? I was like, what do you mean you need to force her to feel grace and mercy for you?

Krispin: Exactly! It's not like, what can I do to repair the relationship? No. It's what can I do to make my child feel differently and behave differently. 

DL: I mean…that's gross, you guys. That's... But that's unfortunately the reality for a lot of us, is the parents are really focused on that. How can I get my child to forgive? And so hearing Townsend's advice, I'm like, you're just giving ammunition to this unsafe parent." You know what I mean? 

Krispin: Right. Exactly. And let's listen to the next step. Okay, so you write down everything.

DL: You ask your kid to tell you everything you did wrong. 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. You write it down on a legal pad.

DL: Okay, write it down on a legal pad. 

Krispin: Here's his next step:

Townsend: And then I'm going to take that and I'm going to go home and you're going to go home, and I want to sit down and pray and write and think through. And everything you've narrated that I've done that's true, I'm going to change it, and I'm going to change it by the time we meet again if you'll give me a second meeting.

And in that second meeting, I'm going to show you how I've changed and I'm going to stay changed, and that is all I ask of you, and that's because you're worth that to me. Is that something you would be interested in? 

DL: What? What? 

Krispin: So, first of all…

DL: Whoa. I mean, 99% of that was bullshit. But there's 1% that is true, and I will change by the time you see me again.

Krispin: But here's the thing is you pray about it and whatever God tells you you should change.

DL: Yeah, God's the only one. I mean, God's the only one who knows the hearts. 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: And the hearts of the parents are good. You know what I mean?

Krispin: Right. Exactly. I mean, we'll get to the comments later, but I saw this in the comments all the time, which is like, "No, I'm just, I'm following God. I don't have anything to change." 

DL: Yeah, we will get to that. 

Krispin: So I just think that this is... Yeah, how shitty would it be for a parent to be like, "I really want to understand"? And then it's like, "Well, I am going to decide- 

DL: Yeah, “I'm going to pray…”

Krispin: “And I'm going to decide what's true or not." 

DL: Oh, yeah. 

Krispin: Right?

DL: And prayer's going to come up a lot in today's episode because it's a coercive control tactic in these communities. And I think this is a good example of one of the ways it's being used. And at first blush you're like, "Oh, this sounds great, telling parents to do that." But then when you get to that part you're like, "Ah. Here we go. Here we fucking go." 

Krispin: Right. Yeah. 

DL: And they're going to be able to dismiss so many of those harms. Again, I don't know any parents who are actually doing this because they are so fragile they can't handle it. 

Krispin: Right. Uh-huh. 

DL: So I don't know anybody who's doing this, but now they can weaponize that. God will tell them, you know? 

Krispin: Right. Yeah. And then this last part of like, "Well, I'm going to change, and by our next meeting I will have changed ... you'll see that I've changed." 

And I think a lot of folks that I've worked with run into this, where sometimes there's some element in the conversation, whether it's parents asking or, like, them thinking through like, "Well, what, what can I ask my parent to do? I want to mend this relationship." 

But it's hard to say, "Well, you know, do this or that thing." You know? Like, "I want you to, you know, ask before you come over to my house." For example. 

DL: Yeah. 

Krispin: That doesn't change the whole very deeply embedded personality dynamics in that parent. The emotional immaturity, right? Mostly we're talking about emotionally immature parents. 

DL: Yeah. 

Krispin: So this idea of like, "Well, I'm just going to become emotionally mature," doesn't make sense. And a lot of times then you're kind of stuck in this place where the parent's like, "What? I did what you asked me to do." But it still shows up in all these other dynamics because that's how systems work and how relationships work.

Because in an unhealthy relationship, you can't just say, "Well, here's how I want the behavior to change," because that dynamic will show up in other areas, right? 

DL: Yeah. And I, I think what's so disingenuous about this Townsend conversation and all of this is looking at the actual issues people have and what they are trying to communicate to their parents, mostly what it revolves around is like, “Your religion is making you toxic. And the parent can't process that, right? Because that's their entire identity. They've devoted their whole lives to this grift, you know? So they can't unpack that. 

Krispin:  Right. Mm-hmm. 

DL: So what that ends up being is if someone's like, "Hey, I don't actually believe the same as you. So when you use all these talking points to talk to me, like, you have to figure out other ways to communicate. Cause I don't believe that anymore."

They're unable to do that. And tons of different kinds of conflict comes out of that. Let's take it even more specific, okay? Let's talk about an actual thing that is happening in so many communities and households across the United States which is something like a young person is expressing their gender identity, maybe playing around with it, maybe they know, you know? 

Krispin: Mm-hmm.

DL: So they're like, "I actually have these pronouns now."

Krispin: Yeah. 

DL: Okay? What happens in these communities, the Focus on the Family communities, right? 

Krispin: Well, they pray about it. 

DL: Well, yeah. They pray about it, and what does God tell them? And what does Focus on the Family tell them to do when a young person's like, "Hey, I'm going by this name now. I'm using these pronouns now."

You know, offering that as like, "Hey, this is who I am. Do you want to be in a relationship with me?" How are these parents responding to that? 

Krispin: Well, let me tell ya. This is my John Townsend voice. We gotta be loving and we gotta be truthing.

DL: Truthing? Did he say that?

Krispin: Yes. That's what he says. He says this in this video. Have to be loving and have to be truthing. 

DL: Yeah, so what do they consider truthing? 

Krispin: Yeah, using the gender terms that the person first was born with. 

DL: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so for them to use the preferred pronouns, to use, you know, the new names, it's an attack on their identity, on their personhood, on their faith, because they've made it that way.

Krispin: No, it's not. They're just truthing. 

DL: They're just truthing. 

Krispin: They're, they're trying to have love and truth. In the clinical world, we call that integration. I'm just like, this is the sort of stuff he says in this video. He just throws it out. And right, so it's like, hey, this is coming from a clinical psychologist, you know?

DL: Right, but we know so many people who have been like, not even for them, but for like their kids, they're like talking to their own parents like, "If you want to be in a relationship with your grandkid, you've got to be able to meet them where they're at." And instead, these communities are like, "No, that's an attack on my religion. If I'm going to be persecuted for sticking to God's truth, so be it." 

And that's what ends up happening, and it's just so upsetting. So imagine being queer. Imagine being genderqueer, sitting down with your parent, telling them all this stuff, and then they're just going to go pray about it.

And God's going to tell them, "No, boys are boys and girls are girls, and that's the most important thing. Your kid's just going to go to hell unless you keep sticking to this." That's the most positive way of looking at it, honestly. 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: And so it just enrages me to see people like Hair Dye John Townsend, you know, sitting at his desk telling parents to do this, when we know every other piece of advice they're getting from Focus on the Family is: never compromise. And if you lose your kids to the gay culture for sticking to God's word, well, Jesus said that would happen. So you're on the right path. And you need to suffer for God.

Like that's the advice I'm going to be getting into in just a little bit. So I want to just be so for real about what's actually happening, and this conversation around preferred pronouns is because these parents are unable to listen or compromise.

Krispin: Right. Mm-hmm. 

DL: And how do you move forward in a relationship like that? You can’t.

Krispin: Right. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. I was thinking, we've been preparing for this for a few days, but I woke up this morning and I was like, "Oh, I had a conversation kind of like this with my mom." 

DL: Really? 

Krispin: Yeah. I went no contact for a while and basically said, "Mom, I want you to reflect on these unhealthy dynamics in our family so that we can move forward and we can heal." So she went and met with a counselor, a Christian counselor. But I do know that she went through this particular curriculum that looked at dysfunctional family dynamics. So stuff like denying and distorting healthy emotions, individual needs are expendable, lack of straightforward healthy communication, the wrong people are protected, family members are isolated and lack intimacy.

So kind of this picture of like what do dysfunctional families where abuse happens, what are the common things? 

DL: Yeah. 

Krispin: And I met with her after and I was like, "What, what did you think?" She met with a counselor like eight times or something. And she was like, "Well, I just think all families are like this and it's never going to change."

DL: Dang. 

Krispin: And she was like, "But how long are you going to not trust your family? And how long are you going to not, you know, be around your family? Like you just have to get over it." 

DL: That's sort of, I mean, that's so depressing. 

Krispin: And I was like, "Uh, I'm only going to trust them when they're trustworthy again." 

DL: Yeah! I mean, a part of... Well, I guess we just don't have to get into what makes someone trustworthy at this point, but yeah. 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. So I think that sort of speaks to my mom. I think it probably speaks to a lot of parents, which is just like, "Well, I'm your parent, so like... And this is an important relationship, so you're just going to have to, like, fall back in line, or you're going to at some point. I don't have to actually do any work to change." 

DL: Yeah. 

Krispin: I mean, this is just authoritarianism, right? Is like, "Here's the structure. You fall in line." And I see that in a lot of the comments, but I think that that is undergirding a lot of this, which parents are just like, "Yeah, my kid is wilding out. I don't need to actually reflect. And they'll come back eventually, or they won't." 

DL: Yeah, but that's so... I mean, it's kind of bleak to be like, “All families are messed up and toxic, at some point you just have to be like, ‘Well, family's family.’” And I think for so many of us, we're like, "No. We don't."

Krispin: Uh-huh. Yeah. 

DL: And also not every family or community is toxic. 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: So that's good to keep in the back of our minds as we keep going. Okay, so what's next? 

Krispin: Okay, so in this conversation with, uh, Jim Daly and John Townsend, Jim Daly says, "What about when children are making decisions that hurt them?"

DL: Being gay? Being queer?

Krispin: Yeah. It's funny. They're like, yeah, “Their sexual ethic, or they don't get a job, or they're using drugs.”

DL: That's a lot of difference. Yeah. 

Krispin: Yeah. They're, they're engaging in criminal activity. 

DL: Okay. Being Antifa. 

Krispin: Uh-huh. 

DL: Mm-hmm. 

Krispin: But definitely the subtext here is, like, what if they're in a gay relationship?

Yes. And when I say subtext, I mean, uh, Focus on the Family has a lot of articles about what if your kid is harming themselves through being in a gay relationship? 

DL: Yeah, and by the way, we just got through the month of June being on these forums.

Krispin: Oh my God. 

DL: And it was wild. Yeah. Their anti-Pride stuff is in full force.Every other day, they're posting articles of, like, how to make sure you talk to your small children about God's design for sexuality and gender and why God made girls girls and boys boys. They are going all in on this. To people in the trenches of parenting small children. And then they're also posting all these articles about estrangement, so just keep that in mind. Just keep that in mind.

Krispin: Uh-huh. Yeah. So let me, I'm going to briefly go through these seven steps. He doesn't say these are the seven steps but this is what he describes. So, if your adult child is doing something that's harmful to them, meet with them. Ask them why they're doing the harmful behavior, and listen, because they probably have a whole lot of reasonsDon't stop listening until the adult child says, “Yes, you understand me." So you repeat it back and you say, "Am I getting it right? Am I getting it right? Am I getting it right?" And when that child says, "Yes, you've understood me," then you can move on to the next part.

DL: Okay, first of all, that's never going to happen for most of us, but okay.

Krispin: Yes. Now that you've listened and proven that you care by listening,

DL: You proved it, huh? 

Krispin: You proved it. Then you can ask them, "Do you want to hear my perspective?" So for one, this feels so much like my dad. 

DL: I don't want to hear their perspective.

Krispin: My dad would, like, listen and listen, then he would be like, "Okay, well, now that I've listened to you, you need to listen to me." 

DL: By the way, your dad really did do this. My mom did this too. And it's a total mind fuck. I’ll tell you that.

Krispin: Right. And Townsend says, "Only one out of 100 will say no to this," because you've listened to them. You've proven... 

DL: What? What? 

Krispin: Yeah, that's what he says. So now, tell them why their harmful behavior will harm them five to 10 years down the road. And in preparation, you should do some research into what psychology says about it, what the Bible says about it, what reality says. Find some facts and statistics to prove it to them.

DL: Perfect. This is really going to repair this relationship, I can tell you right now.

Krispin: Right. And the subcontext of this is, I mean, there are some Focus on The Family articles that are like, "Yeah, as a parent, you should be accepting of your child. But you need to be really truthful with them about the harms of the gay lifestyle."

DL: Yeah. 

Krispin: So that's what they're talking about here, right? 

DL: In radical gender ideology. 

Krispin: Yeah. And then if they decide to not listen and they don't change, now you know what God feels like when people don't listen to him. That's literally what he says. 

DL: What?! Wow. Talk about drawing in people with a God complex. Okay

Krispin: Uh-huh. Now, if they don't listen to you, they're an adult, you can't put them in a timeout anymore, is what he says. 

DL: What? 

Krispin: What he really should say is you can't spank them anymore because that's what they were told to do. You don't really have control over them, so now you just have to agree to disagree about, quote, "sex or work ethic or whatever.” Remember, you can accept them without approving of them, but you're allowed to not compromise your values, and you can just say, "Hey, what about a game of pickleball?" 

DL: What? What? That's how this ends? 

Krispin: Direct quote. 

DL: Dyed Hair Townsend loves pickleball. I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised. Krispin, Krispin, Krispin. “Agree to disagree about sex or work ethic.” I'm kinda stuck on that. '

Krispin: Cause they keep on talking about this, like, what if your kid doesn't get a job? 

DL: No, I... You know what this is? It's about people being anti-capitalistic. 

Krispin: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. 

DL: This community, now they are not writing quite as much about this, but I know this estranged parent community is obsessed with worrying that their kids are becoming Antifa socialists. Democratic socialists, Mamdani lovers. 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: So that, that's probably what that is about. Oh my God, you, eh eh eh.

Krispin: I know, I just threw so much at you. And basically he says that in, like, two minutes, you know?

DL: Wow. What person would do this whole thing, share deeply about where they're coming from, their concerns about capitalism, their gender and sexual identity, then be told, like, "That's not only wrong, it's harmful, and here's all the bad things that will happen to you according to God." 

Krispin: “And here's why the Bible proves it's wrong.”

DL: “And I accept you without approving of you.” Who wants to be in a relationship with people who say they accept you but don't approve of you? Do you want to be in a relationship with anybody like that? 

Krispin: No. 

DL: Why? 

Krispin: It doesn't feel good to be told, like, "I love you in spite of who you are." Which, by the way, is evangelical theology.

DL: Well, exactly. So many people accept this as normal because that's baked into the entire religion. It's the original grift, that then is capitalized by people like this, and it's also just really triggering. It's probably triggering back to childhood, right? When, as a child, you're exploring the world, you're exploring all this stuff, and you're being hurt by your caregivers over and over again and you don't really understand why, but it's just because God wants them to. You know? 

Krispin: Right. 

DL: Then going back to this, and I just think for most of us, if you were raised in these communities, your self-esteem and your sense of autonomy was targeted so that you would be vulnerable to this kind of abuse, this kind of emotional abuse of saying, "No, this is the loving thing for me to not approve of you." 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: And to force you to be in relationship with me even though I say over and over again, "You're wrong. I'm right." You know what I mean? And they're just hoping that they abuse their kids enough in childhood that the child will take this the rest of their life. I hate to say it. But that's, that's the truth for so many of us. 

Krispin: Right. Yeah. 

DL: And just the fact that they have equated this, their beliefs to their, you know, their identity and their values, I don't know. It really upsets me. 

Krispin: Well, yeah. It's the totalitarianism of it.

DL: Mm-hmm. 

Krispin: Which really this whole thing reads around, like, well, yeah, you're, you're allowed to live life the way that you want to. But it's not the right way. Which is really different than, people live lives different ways, and that's okay. 

And it really sucks to be in a relationship with someone who's like, "Yeah, I accept you even though your decisions and your values and the way that you express yourself and your sexuality and gender, even though all of those things are wrong, I still want to be in a relationship with you." 

DL: Yeah. 

Krispin: I was thinking about this, like, agree to disagree thing, and I think that I really want to center adult children. And so by that, what I mean is, there are some folks that are like, "Yeah, I would rather have this sort of surfacey relationship with my parent than not having a relationship at all," and that's okay.

DL: Yeah. 

Krispin: But I think culturally, and even in the therapy world, I mean it goes both ways, but I think if you grew up in this ideology, there is this pressure that's like, family's most important. You have to overlook things. Yeah. At least, if you're a Christian, then you don't overlook things because you have to stick to your values. 

DL: Yeah. 

But if you're not, you know, the fundamentalist, you have to overlook things and keep that relationship. And I just want to say, yeah, sometimes agree to disagree just doesn't work, and I don't know how to fix that. If you have a parent that is like, "I think your sexuality or gender expression is sinful," it's totally okay if you're like, "Yeah, I do not want that relationship." And there's no way to fix that. It just is what it is. 

DL: Yeah. I mean, if I'm being cynical here, I think this entire thing that Townsend lays out is basically designed to cause estrangement. Does that make sense? And it's also designed to help the parents be like, "Well, I tried. I did my part. And now it's the adult child's fault," right? Because they don't want to play pickleball with me. 

I'm like, "You just told me you don't accept me for who I am. And you want to just, like, play pickleball? Every week for the rest of my life? That's not how I want to live my life. 

Krispin: Yeah, and that’s not how we do relationships.

DL: Now these people have this whole thing, "Well, I did my part. I did my part to repair the relationship." So, I'm saying they know exactly what they're doing. First of all, nobody actually does all this shit. Second of all, they'll just be like, "Well, I tried." 

Krispin: Right. 

DL: And that's all there is to it. So I think this pickleball thing is actually a huge deal, you know? 

Krispin: Uh-huh. Right, yeah. Yeah. 

DL: They're setting up these things, and people are probably experiencing this, right? Just even, like, 4th of July celebrations, America 250, whatever. There's all this pressure to, like, just go along with it. Just pretend everything's fine. Just agree to disagree. This is their olive branch they're extending. I'm like, “No." 

Krispin: Yeah. 

DL: First of all, it takes a lot of energy to pretend everything's fine with someone who thinks you're wrong and, and horrible and all that stuff. But I don't know. 

Krispin: Yeah. Right.

DL: I think this is a huge deal, and I just think it's setting people up for estrangement, which these communities will continue to profit off of. 

Krispin: Right, and I think it really comes out when he's like, "Yeah, if they decide to not listen and not change, now you know what God feels like.

DL: Oh ... Okay. 

Krispin: That really, I think, sets the tone for the whole thing, which is, like, there's this – I mean, even the, one of the lessons is called, uh, "Demonstrate Humility." 

DL: Yeah. 

Krispin: But it's not actually humility. It's false humility to be like, "Well, I'm going to listen, but I'm like God, because I know what's actually good for you."

DL: Yeah, okay. 

Krispin: Last bit. 

DL: Oh, God. 

Krispin: What if they cut you off? 

DL: The kids? Cut off the parents?

Krispin: Yeah.

DL: I wonder, how could they have chosen to do that? That's so weird.

Krispin: Right, yeah. So Jim Daly's like, "Yeah, you know, Dr. Townsend, what about kids that have, you know, they've stopped reaching out, they don't want to hear from you, blah, blah, blah.”

He's like, "Send an email or a card or a text quarterly because they've chosen to live in a way that is harmful to them, and they will suffer. And one day they're going to wake up and be like, 'I hate my life, and look, Mom and Dad, they keep on reaching out to me. And I'm experiencing love from them.’ And it'll bring them back, because that's the only place they'll get love, is from your quarterly texts.”

DL: So the plan is the adult child must suffer? 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: Oh, well, we talked about that in our first episode. 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: That's the whole prodigal story narrative in the Bible is the, you know, the guy spends his inheritance and gambles, and then has to eat pig slop, and then goes back to his dad.

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: So remember, they're pushing America into pig slop territory so that the adult children have to come crawling back. 

Krispin:  Right? Yes. 

DL: Oh, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun. 

Krispin: Yeah. 

DL: Great. So that's the advice. 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: A quarterly betrayal of boundaries will totally help everything. 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. Can I just share really briefly about my experience of this? 

DL: Okay. 

Krispin: So going back to, because now y'all have some context where I told my mom, "Hey, I want to actually work through things." Instead of actually working through things and saying, "All right, what can we do to grow and change and heal?" She sent me a birthday card every year on my birthday saying, "I'm thinking of you."

DL: Yeah. 

Krispin: And it's like, all right, you're thinking of me, but- 

DL: You've done nothing that I asked 

Krispin: Yeah. And I just share that 'cause I think a lot of people have that weird feeling of like, this seems like a nice thing, but it's actually a way of getting off the hook of actually doing work. 

DL: Yeah, my parents just showed up at our house a few months ago and knocked on the door.That was fun. 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: Super-duper fun times. These little ways people are trying to force, I don't know, their presence even though they're not doing any of the things we asked for or responding to any of the things we've talked to them about. Because I've done it. I've done what Townsend suggested.

Krispin: Yeah. 

DL: And I sent an email to my parents outlining the things they did that were hurtful and what I need in response, and they were silent, and then they just show up randomly and stress us the fuck out. So great. 

Can I go to my shit now? 

Krispin: Yes. 

DL: Okay, because I looked at the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute, and we talked about this article from June 2nd, "Why Are More Adult Children Cutting Off Their Christian Parents?" So they're talking about this. 

I want to just say this article is written by Steve Kroning. Okay. And he, I think this is so funny. Here's one of the books he's written, Make Mama Happy: Timeless Wisdom for Men Who Want an Extraordinary Marriage. Make mama happy. 

Krispin: Reminds me of when I call you Mommy. That never actually happened.

DL: That’s never once happened, but I was like, at some point in the future, I'm going to tell you, "Make mama happy," and you know what that means, right, Krispin? 

Krispin: Yes. 

DL: Krispin, you don't know what that means? Okay. So also, the funny thing about this guy, he has a blog called truefantasy.org. 

Krispin: Okay. 

DL: Do you want to type it into your browser, or are you scared? Do it. Truefantasy.org. I'm scared what will come up if you do .com. 

Krispin: I know.I was going to say, I almost wrote .com 'cause you said it. 

DL: No! And then tell me the image you see. 

Krispin: Aslan. 

DL: Aslan. What's Aslan looking at? 

Krispin: He's supposed to be looking at the Bible but he's looking below it.

DL: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's AI. But it's an AI Aslan looking at a Bible. Now, Steve's whole thing is that, yes, it might appear like we're following a bunch of bizarre, old, outdated mythology fantasy stories because that's kinda what the Bible is. But nope, it's all true. And so once you recognize that these fantasy stories are actually the truth, you know, whatever.

So I just think that's so funny. 

Krispin: Uh-huh. 

DL: These people are living in a fantasy world, and they're very upfront about it all. 

Krispin: Yeah. Right

DL: Okay? So true fantasy, that's this guy. So he wrote this article, and basically it starts off with this story about his friend who's heartbroken because his 21-year-old son eloped.

Here's where it gets interesting though. It says, "For years, his son accused him of being abusive, but when pressed for specifics, he described the strict standards by which he was raised. Bill had said no to certain behaviors and enforced clear boundaries,” again, using corporal punishment, okay?

"Godly parenting like that has increasingly become grounds for grown children to cut off their families." So that's the first paragraph of this article, which we talked about in our first episode. It's like, godly parenting is now the grounds for estrangement? Who would've thought?

Now it says, "Dr. James Dobson long reminded moms and dads that while none of us lead our homes perfectly, millions of us are striving to raise children according to biblical principles. Many of these mothers and fathers are now facing an unexpected reality. Their grown children are walking away, not only from their faith, but from them. The statistics are sobering." 

So then he says, "Cornell found that roughly 27% of American adults report being estranged from at least one family member, with parent-child alienation affecting an estimated one in 10 families. At the same time, Pew Research reports that younger generations are significantly more likely to leave their parents' Christian faith, creating a wide divide."

"Many parents are stunned. They raised their children in church, set boundaries," )spanked the shit out of them), "and said no when necessary. Now their grown children are reinterpreting these very decisions through a different cultural lens, one that is shaped by therapeutic language and heightened emphasis on emotional safety and social media narratives that often equate disagreement with harm.”

That's it. That's the article 

Krispin: Uh-huh. Okay? 

DL: Oh my God. Now he's like, "Okay, so this is devastating." 

Krispin: Uh-huh. 

DL: “How should we respond?” Do you want me to go really quickly through what parents should do? Okay. Number one is, now tell me your response to this. “Anchor yourself in God's design for family.”

Krispin: Okay…

DL: He says, "There's a good reason Dr. Dobson wrote the book, Parenting Isn't For Cowards. He knew society was moving against anyone who dared to speak truth to their children." 

Krispin: Uh-huh. 

DL: Okay? 

Krispin: Uh-huh. 

DL: “So if you're estranged from your adult kids, begin by anchoring yourself in this reality: obedience to God's word is never abuse.”

Krispin: Okay. So basically, if your kids stop talking to you, just tell them more about why the Bible thinks they're wrong. 

DL: No, you need to anchor yourself in why.

Krispin: Oh.

DL:  Okay, he also says, "But faithful obedience to biblical conviction is not cruelty, it is loving." 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: So basically, ignore anything your adult child tries to tell you about their upbringing, okay? 

Number two. Oh, this sounds good. "Examine your heart with humility." Okay. Kinda what Townsend says. But then it says, "Estrangement does not automatically mean you were abusive." It does say if there are real failures on your part, you need to own them.

Number three, "Understand the season of emerging adulthood."

Basically, Jesus warned that allegiance to himself could divide families. You know what I mean? And because the people who are doing wicked hate to be told they're doing wickedness. You know what I mean? 

Krispin: Mm-hmm.

DL: “Sometimes estrangement reflects not your failure, but your child's struggle to define himself apart from Christian values, and perhaps from God as well. But there is hope. If someone's rebelling in their early adulthood, they will probably come back to the fold." Uh, yeah right. 

Number four, "Leave the door open." Now we get to the story of the prodigal son. 

DL: He says, "In the story of the prodigal son, the father did not chase after his son and he didn't compromise truth. But he watched.”

Krispin: Yeah. That is– I mean, we're going to talk about that in the comments section for a minute, but that spiritual bypassing of like, "Well, I don't need to do anything to mend this relationship because the father of the prodigal son didn't do anything."

DL: Yeah. So he says, "For heartbroken parents, this is both a source of comfort and instruction. The father controlled his own actions by watching for his son's return, leaving the door open." 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: Now, number five, this is the last part, and this is the one that gets me the most. It says, "Suffer without losing hope." He's telling the parents you have to suffer without losing hope, okay? 

And says, "Peter wrote to believers experiencing unjust suffering," you know, "Continue entrusting himself to he who judges justly to God, If you are being misunderstood, entrust your reputation to the Lord through prayer. Time has a way of clarifying narratives. Truth does not panic. God sees what others may misinterpret." 

So there's, there's that. Just you have to suffer, and you have to just know that God will bring it all back. 

Krispin: Which, I mean, this is the playbook for the cult, right? 

DL: Yeah.

Krispin: Which is like, if, yeah, if you follow God, things will go well. That's the healthy way of living. But if they don't go well, it's because God is calling you to suffer. 

DL: Yeah, so then he's like, okay, here's a word to younger parents. “If you're raising children today in a world that prizes self-expression above obedience and emotional validation above authority, well, you just have to keep going, and you have to explain the why behind your convictions. This isn't a guarantee that your kids won't cut off communication, but it's the best strategy.”

And I'm like, "What? No, it's not." 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

DL: Anyways, that's kind of like the main thing. And of course, they talk about prayer, and there's another article that came right after this that says, "Praying for Your Family When You Don't See Immediate Results," and basically – he's the same author – he tells these two stories of people who had to wait, like, four decades for their prodigal to get so disillusioned and suffer so, enough until they came back because of prayer. And so I'm like, do we want to talk about the prayer of it all? Because I just told you a bunch of horrible advice this guy gave. Right. 

Krispin: Uh-huh. 

DL: But the number-one advice we see from these communities is telling parents, "You need to suffer and you need to pray." 

Krispin: Yeah. Let's talk about that in the unhinged comments section. 

DL: Okay. Okay. Okay, well, you want to respond to everything I just dumped on you? 

Krispin: Yeah, I mean, basically what I'm hearing is just like, "Yeah, keep doing it the way that we've told you to do it, and you just have to wait for your kids to fall in line. And if they don't, you're doing it for the Lord." 

DL: And following God's word is never abusive. 

Krispin: Right. Exactly. And if you are starting to self-reflect on, maybe the way that I parented wasn't good, don't do that. Ground yourself in the truth of the Bible, right? 

DL: I think it's really sad that they're like, "Culture is shifting to where kids want emotional safety."

Krispin: Right? 

DL: And I'm like, "No shit, Sherlock. Everybody wants emotional safety in their close relationships. But the parenting methods you are peddling and literally making money off of make that impossible. Your child's nervous system is terrified of you. 

Krispin: Right. 

DL: Okay? Because of how often you hurt them. And it doesn't matter how calmly you explain your convictions that the Bible told you to do. It doesn't change the fact that so many of us feel so on edge, hypervigilant, scared, terrified. You know? Like, that in-trouble feeling is horrible. 

Krispin: Yeah. 

DL: And we are supposed to deal with that feeling by just placating our parents the rest of our lives and playing pickleball with them. But many of us are like, "I can't do that anymore." 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: And thanks to these groups, the parents are now like, "Well, I don't have anything to think about. Because..." But to me, vilifying the need for emotional safety is really nefarious shit. You know what I mean?

Krispin: Yeah. It really is. 

DL: Because that's something everyone deserves. You know? 

Krispin: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Should we talk about what parents should do instead?

DL: Okay, Krispin. We just heard a bunch of really terrible advice. And if I'm being honest – now I'm not a therapist, but much of the conversation around estrangement and advice doesn't sit right with my spirit. If I’m being honest. I don't love a lot of it. I think people don't really know what to do, perhaps. That's how I feel about cults too. 

Krispin: Yeah. 

DL: Anybody who says they're a cult expert and gets people out of cults, I'm like, "No, you don't." Nobody knows how to do that. 

Krispin: Right. 

DL: You know what I mean? All we can say is the people listening to us have left the cults. So good job. You did that. Now you're probably in relationship or have people, you know, that you were born into that are still in the cult. 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: We don't have any advice for getting people out of the cult. I'm just saying if you're listening to this, you probably have done that work already. Good job. I would say if the estranged parent community is listening to me right now, if I could talk to them right now, especially from this Christian patriarchal white supremacist community, I would say the thing you need more than anything else is the ability to recognize that you've been grifted.

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: To me, that's the non-negotiable here. I have seen the harm that comes when people are unable to process or deal with the fact that they've been grifted by people. And so what so many people do is they actually dig their heels in even harder and commit to the grift even more rather than do the work of saying, "This didn't actually pan out at all the way these people said it would." 

Krispin: Right. So maybe I was given bad parenting advice. 

DL: Ooh, you think so? 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: Maybe this ancient text that has been manipulated by power-hungry men for centuries doesn't actually give me the tools to be in a relationship with an adult person in 2026.

You know what I mean? Because we have the internet now, I'm sorry to say, like, all these old abusive, toxic narratives are crumbling everywhere we look. And I just think if you can't admit you were wrong, that you were grifted, there's really nothing you can do to move forward.

And I know this pisses people off but I think evangelical Christianity is a grift. 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: And that's the central thing here. And because people can't unpack that, they can't unpack the harms of Dr. James Dobson's advice, they can't unpack the harms of the far right movement and Christian nationalism.

And I just have seen this with my friends and people I know, our parents just get worse and worse and worse over time because they can't admit they were wrong or that they were taken advantage of. And I will say, if people are grifted in one area, they're probably being grifted in others. 

And nobody's immune from this. Nobody's immune from being grifted. You and I still get grifted. I hate to say it. It's just a part of being alive. 

Krispin: Right. 

DL: But if you can say, "Wow, I've been presented with this new information,” and I can say, "Dang. That didn't actually work. That person wasn't who I thought they were. And moving forward, I'm just going to have to accept that." 

Krispin: Yeah. 

DL: I want to be a person who can self-reflect. And I guess it comes back to this thing about pride. You know, is it pride? What is it? I don't know, but I think grifters actually really know what they're doing and understand that a lot of people have this psychological need to never admit they were conned. 

Krispin: Right. 

DL: And we're just seeing this happen with Donald Trump on this, like, epic scale. You know? Okay, that's my advice. Admit you were grifted. That's all I got.

Krispin: Right. Yeah. I think repair is often possible if you can be like, "Yeah, I want to own this. And I want to work..."

DL: Isn't that a part of taking accountability to say, like, "I did these things, but I was misled." You know? 

Krispin: Yeah. Right. Yeah. And in my experience as a therapist, a lot of adult children are like, "Yeah, I do want a better relationship with my parents. I do want to repair. I don't want to continue this thing that we've been doing." 

DL: Yeah. Pickleball? 

Krispin: Uh-huh. 

DL: I’m just going to keep going back to the pickleball of it all.

Krispin: Yes, right. I think my advice is, one is look at your totalitarianism. So look at this worldview that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

DL: I mean, isn't that indistinguishable from Christianity, though? 

Krispin: So yeah, great question. 

DL: Sorry. 

Krispin: I would say do research on spanking and the fawn response. 

DL: Okay.

Krispin: Because when I'm thinking about the dynamic between parents and the adult children that they spanked, there is this violence and power hierarchy that if the parent is not aware of that is not going to create safety for the kid. And I think about, let's look at misogyny as an example of this, right? Men and women. And a man who is like, "I don't know why women don't feel safe around me and why they won't tell me directly what they're thinking," in an employment situation. Right? 

DL: Yeah. 

Krispin: If you don't have that awareness you're not going to be able to have authentic relationships. 

DL: That's so true. 

Krispin: So I think you need to kinda look at like, yeah, what are the power dynamics here? 

DL: Yeah. 

Krispin: But I would say just, engage in some sort of therapy focused on this relationship, family therapy if your adult child is open to it, or individual therapy. But work with someone who is not a Christian and who is not a boomer. Because if you're evangelical, you've gotten lots and lots of advice from people in that sphere. 

DL: Yeah. 

Krispin: And so that's there. Like, you already have that knowledge. I would suggest looking outside of that sphere to see if there's something else that you could learn from a different perspective.

DL: Wow. I'm still stuck on you just being like, "These parents should research the long-term impacts of spanking." That's huge. It never even crossed my mind that that should be one of the first things, but it is. 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: And I know there's some parents listening who spank their kids and feel really guilty about that. But I'm like, you're doing the work. If you are listening to the harms that that causes and are able to self-reflect, that's what we all need to be like. I'm saying it for myself. I'm going to need to self-reflect in my life. You know?

Krispin: Uh-huh. Right. Yeah.

DL: That's the work. It doesn't change what happened in the past, but that actually gives grounds for moving forward in humanity and society. 

Krispin, we are going so long here. 

Krispin: There's so much to say about it.

DL: There's so much to say. Is it almost time? 

Krispin: Yeah, for the unhinged comment section.

DL: So once again, if this is your chance to hop out before we start giving the quotes from the parents in these communities. Thank you to everyone who supports this project. Please support us on Patreon if you want us to keep going because this is tough stuff. We do not do this for fun.

Krispin: Despite all the laughing. I mean, this whole week we're like, "Do you feel emotionally ready to record?" 

DL: No! I don't feel emotionally ready for any of this, and yet it's a conversation worth having. 

Krispin: Yeah. 

DL: So if you appreciate this, please support our work in some way. You can rate us, review us, share us, blah, blah, blah. Do all that.

Okay, so. Unhinged comment section. I did not wade around in the comments too much this go around. The old mental health wasn't ready. What did you see, Krispin? 

Krispin: So, basically, I wanted to share what the parents thought would be helpful when they're in this situation with estrangement.

DL: Yeah, we shared the expert advice which was SO good. 

Krispin: Uh-huh, right, yeah. So here’s from the parents. 

DL: Who are all hearing from God himself, so it should be good stuff, right? 

Krispin: Right, yeah. “Trusting God for his perfect plan.” That's all. 

DL: Oh God, this is going to be triggering to people who are still Christian because we're going to laugh, but we gotta!

Wow, his plan fucking sucks. I'm going to say that right here, right now. 

Krispin: Uh-huh. "I'm trusting in God that one day my daughter will want a relationship with me. Until then, I keep praying for her. Smiley face.” 

DL: Smiley face 

Krispin: Just this theme of just like, "Well, I guess there's nothing I can do. I'm just going to pray."

DL: Well, prayer is doing something. 

Krispin: Right. “They have the ability to reject Christ, but He will pursue them until the end, so rest in the sovereignty of God.”

DL: Yeah. Which is interesting. God, or I guess Christ, I guess in this instance, Christ doesn't respect boundaries. 

Krispin: Right. Yeah. 

DL: You know what I mean? And that's good. That's pretty great. Yep.

Krispin: Yeah. I think that this really gives a picture of how a lot of people respond in emotional immaturity. They said, "I gave myself permission to go on with my life. I still pray for them daily." Right? Because prayer helps. "I still hurt, but I don't dwell on it. They know I love them. They know what I believe." 

DL: Uh-huh. Which is true. We actually do know that. That's been made crystal clear to most of us over and over again. 

Krispin: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. "They are grown and they can make their own decisions. I wish things were different, but I can't change who my children have become."

DL: Ooh, uh-huh.

Krispin: “They are welcome to come back when they want. I'm also grown. I choose to live for Christ. I choose to focus on Him and not on my prodigal children." There's a lot in there.

DL: Well that hurts my tummy. 

Krispin: Right?

DL: I choose Christ and not my children," is the definition of being in a cult.

Krispin: Right. Uh-huh. 

DL: How can we not see this yet?

Krispin: Right. Mm-hmm. Yep.

DL: And for many people, they're like, "I choose... that is extended to my political party that is actively platforming someone making billions while also being a pedophile rapist.” Anyways. 

Krispin: Right. The phrase that stands out to me is, "I can't change who my children have become."

DL: Yeah. 

Krispin: So it's not about the relationship is broken, the idea is they are broken. 

DL: They changed. 

Krispin: They changed. It's who they've become.

DL: “They used to be such compliant children when I could hit them and shame them into, you know, being a part of this religion that I used to control them!”

Krispin: Mm-hmm. Here's another one. I think that this really gets at some of the emotional tone that we hear, the subtext. 

DL: Okay.

Krispin: “I take comfort in the fact, in the parable of the prodigal son, the father didn't go chasing after his son. He didn't stop living his life. He didn't apologize for his existence." 

DL: Oh. Okay. 

Krispin: Which again has the subtext of like, “I'm sorry for existing.” Right? 

DL: Existing. See, that's all of our issue. I mean, yeah. 

Krispin: Right. Here's one of my favorites. "We're struggling with three kids far away from God, but all we can do is pray and show what a godly marriage looks like."

DL: Yeah, I mean that's the advice given in these places.

Krispin: What does that mean? Does that just mean like- 

DL: It means the trad wife life. 

Krispin: Right. 

DL: And a lot of us are like, "That looks fucking miserable." Okay. 

Krispin: Right. And they're like, "Yeah, we just have to keep doing the patriarchy thing and they'll come back."

DL: Yeah, the godly patriarchy is incredibly, like, cool. 

Krispin: Right, yeah.

DL: And very, I don't know, enticing. If you have that kink, I suppose. 

Krispin: Right. Yeah. Oh my gosh. There was a post that they did – this is the last little section – they did a post about parents asking for forgiveness. And I'll acknowledge-

DL: Because they do that every once in a while, right?

Krispin: Right, yeah. Uh-huh, yeah. 

DL: “Maybe you were abusive. Maybe you didn't follow our methods correctly.” You know, I hate to say self-reflect, but, like, “Search your heart.”

Krispin: Right. And there are some parents in there that are like, "Yeah, I did this and I have a better relationship with my kids because of it."

DL: Yeah, yeah. 

Krispin: Great. But there's a lot of comments like, "Flip that around. When do the children start apologizing?" Sadly, I know so many who have profusely apologized and earnestly tried to understand and change, yet are being cut off cold anyway. Young adults are not accepting apologies.”

Which goes back to what you were saying about Townsend, where it's like, do this process, and then if you did your part... right? And then the last one was, "I forgive myself for my attitude and my part. I won't ask her for forgiveness." 

DL: Sounds great. 

Krispin: Yep. 

DL: Sounds like a really easy person to be in a relationship with. Sounds great, sounds great. It's just, the advice these people are getting is horrible, and people stuck in toxic systems are going to eat it up. 

We didn't really unpack the prayer of it all. Can we just talk about that really quick? Because that's what so many of the comments I see are about. Like, "I'm just giving it to God in prayer." That's a lot of the advice Focus on the Family gives. And also Focus on the Family likes to tell people, "Comment your problems and we'll pray for you." 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: And I mean, people love that. They want to know that their pain is being recognized. And so that's a part of what these communities are doing for estranged parents. It's giving them a sense of community, giving them a sense like they're not alone. And, you know- 

Krispin: And enabling the spiritual bypassing. 

DL: Well, exactly.

Krispin: Which is like, there's an actual problem that needs to be addressed. What are you going to do about it? I'm going to pray about it. 

DL: Yeah. And so for me, the prayer thing is a huge deal because prayer is like a coercive control tactic. 

Krispin: Thoughts and prayers. 

DL: Phh. In these situations. And I think as a general rule America is over thoughts and prayers. Okay?

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: How many instances of gun violence can you experience and being told by your local politician to just pray about it? Like, how long can that keep up? 

Krispin:  Mm-hmm. 

DL: At some point, people are like, "The prayers aren't doing shit. And it's time to take some direct action.” I think we're getting to that place with a lot of things. And, you know, setting boundaries, going low contact or no contact with people who are in this patriarchal, white supremacist Christian cult is a form of direct action. 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: Now, that's not why – I don't even know if most people, many are even thinking of it like that, but it is. Okay? Because there's only so many times you can interact with a person knowing, like, all they're going to do is pray about it so that they can feel better. And nothing's going to change. 

Prayer in these communities, again, it's filling a need that people have. They have emotional immaturity. They have these big feelings they don't know what to do with. I haven't really shared much about me and my own relationship with my parents through this entire episode.

This is where I'm going to say, as someone who was raised in these communities, I had horrible religious OCD as a child. I’m still dealing with the ramifications of that. 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: And when I was overwhelmed by anxiety and depression and not wanting to be alive as a child, because of the things my mom was telling me. Yes, my mom, you know, believed in the end times and, and talked to me about that constantly as a child and teenager. 

But when I was super overwhelmed with my emotions and I finally shared that with my parents, they would tell me to go pray and journal to Jesus and to give it to Jesus. I was given that message so many times that my big emotions, they couldn't handle it. 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: I needed to go pray and journal and listen to worship music until I was calm again. 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. Right.

DL: And then they didn't have to deal with it. And that set up this pattern for my life, which is, that was the only way I could get some relief was by having this– Then the checklist got longer and longer, you know- Right. Yeah ... the older I got. It's journaling. It's reading the Bible. It's being a missionary. You know? 

Krispin: Yeah. 

DL: And it just, I think the prayer part is really sad because, again, how it's used in these communities, just like, "Yeah, you have these big emotions. We don't know what to do. Go pray about it." 

Krispin: Yeah. 

DL: You know? 

Krispin: You know what my mom always said? 

DL: What? 

Krispin: *sings* “Let us pray, let us pray. Everywhere and every way.” Speaking of, this is my segue – I know this is so long. 

DL: Yeah. 

Krispin: But speaking of prayer and emotional immaturity, I recently read an article about Steven Curtis Chapman, who I was just singing the song of, who reminded us all in the '90s to pray all the time. 

DL: Steven Curtis Chapman,  oh, that's who wrote that song? 

Krispin: Yes, uh-huh. 

DL: Oh, okay, okay. 

Krispin: So in my house, he was the prayer guy. My mom would always sing that song, "Let us pray, always pray.” His marriage therapist told him to stop praying so much, because you know how he would pray in his marriage? 

DL: Okay. 

Krispin: He would pray things like, "Lord, help Mary Beth have a better attitude." 

DL: No!

Krispin: Yes! That's what the article said. 

DL: In front of her? 

Krispin: Yes. In front of her. 

DL: Steven Curtis, you little bastard!

Krispin: That is how religious patriarchal narcissists, that's how they pray. 

DL: Wow.

Krispin: And I mention it because I think that is the theme, right?

DL: “Help Mary Beth have a better attitude"

Krispin: Like, when parents are like, "I'm praying for our relationship," 

DL: What they really mean is,

Krispin: “Praying that my kid has a better attitude.” Right?

DL: Yes. “Please help my kid not be non-binary.” 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: “They're ruining my life by wanting emotional safety in this relationship.” 

Oh my God, did we do it? 

Krispin: Yeah. 

DL: Did we do the worst episode yet? 

Krispin: Oh my God. 

DL: Next episode's going to be way better, guys. Because it's going to be about living your best prodigal life while people are praying for you. 

Krispin: Rolling around in that mud.

DL: We're in the slop. Make mama happy. Right? 

Krispin: Yep. 

DL: Okay. Thanks for being here. Thanks for sticking with us as we are just trying to be humans getting through this time. If this is happening to one in 10 American families, I think that's a huge deal. 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: So let's talk about it, and let's just keep exposing what's really going on instead of just playing pickleball about it. 

We were going to end with a question. The question that we are going to ask of ourselves and of the listener today is instead of using the Bible or other people or even us telling you what you should or shouldn't do in your relationship with your caregivers or whatever, you have to trust your own intuition. You have to make your own choices, okay? 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: So what are some ways you've been getting in touch with your intuition? What are some things you have done? This is sort of a bigger question, but it can be quite tiny. You know?

Krispin: Yeah.

DL: Like little things you like or don't like. What have you been doing for intuition lately, Krispin?

Krispin: Paying attention to my anger. 

DL: Oh! You and your anger is a really interesting thing to me. 

Krispin: Mm-hmm. Because I tend to just automatically suppress it and dismiss it and try to just see the good in everyone and avoid conflict. And I think that probably relates to a lot of people that listen because that's how we were raised to be.

Not everyone, but I'm especially that way, I think, personality-wise. So yeah, tuning into my anger and not letting it mean anything initially. Just like, I just feel pissed about this or at this person or whatever, and then kinda making some space to be like, "Do I need to do something about this, or am I just making space for how that felt?"

You know? 

DL: Yeah. Yeah. 

Krispin: Whereas I think for a lot of my life it's like, well, yeah, one, just suppressing it, and for two, it's like, well, if I'm really upset I need to do something. But you don't always need to do something with your anger. Sometimes you do, but sometimes it's just a really great intuition to be like, "Yeah, what am I feeling? Can I make some room for that?" 

DL: Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Sorta similar, but this week I had to process some really complex grief, and it was pretty uncomfortable for me just to sit in it and let it unspool because there was some anger there, there was sadness, there was betrayal, you know, there was panic. It was so interesting and just as a practice, letting myself have the space to feel all of it.

Krispin: Mm-hmm. 

DL: It was not easy, but I was able to be like, "Okay, the older I get, the more I'm allowing myself to experience complex grief." And, you know, I know this entire podcast episode I'm being ridiculous or whatever, but I'm like, that's just one expression of me, and making sure I have spaces to just let it all out has been really important to me. So allowing complexity in my own grief expression, I think has been what I've been thinking about this week. 

Krispin: Hmm. I love that. 

DL: Yeah. 

Krispin: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think we've talked a lot. Thank y'all for listening. Like DL said, you can support us on Patreon.

Over there we're talking about the developmental impacts of growing up in a high control religion or with parenting like this, going stage by stage. So today we talked a lot about those power dynamics that exist between parents and children, and that is what our next episode is about, is about toddlerhood and how parents really squash that.

So if you want to tune in, join our Patreon, and also you can join our Discord that way as well, so. 

DL: Yeah, and also, in the Discord community, after this episode comes out, we're going to be asking that community in particular, tell us some stories of what it's been like as you live your prodigal life, after you set some boundaries with your parents. What's it been like for you? Because I think a lot of people are pretty scared about making those changes and, and being true to themselves. So we're going to ask the community to tell us what it's been like and, and how it's improved your mental health, improved your life, improved your relationship to your own self. 

So, if you're in those communities, be on the lookout. We're going to ask for that, and then hopefully we'll be able to share some of those in our third and final episode in this series. So thank you so much for listening, supporting, sharing, sending this to people you think might benefit from it. We really appreciate all that. 

Krispin: Yeah. Thank y'all so much for listening, and we'll be back next month. 

DL: Bye.