Growing Up in the Fold: Being Born into a High Control Religion
What’s the difference between experiencing religious trauma in the church — and being born into it? This episode, we begin to explore what kinds of long-term impacts come from being born into a high control religion like white evangelicalism.
This episode was initially released for our patreon/website subscribers in May, but we wanted to share it with you this month.
If you want to hear other episodes about the developmental impacts of being raised in a high control religion, you can become a paid subscriber at https://www.strongwilledproject.com/ or our STRONGWILLED patreon, where we’r exploring each developmental phase, discussing how religious authoritarian parenting books approached them, what typical development looks like and what the long-term impacts might be from being raised under religious authoritarian parents (in a high control religion).TW: Sexual abuse, infant loss, neglectful parentingCheck out the website DL mentions, http://www.ezzo.info to hear more critiques of the Ezzos and parenting advice.
We'd love to hear from you all about what resonates and anything you'd add to the conversation!
Thank you so much for your continued support!You can follow STRONGWILED on Instagram. You can follow Krispin on Instagram here and DL on instagram here.
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TRANSCRIPT [Lightly edited for clarity]
Krispin: Welcome to the STRONGWILLED Patreon Only podcast. I'm here with my co-host-
DL: Me, DL Mayfield.
Krispin: I was like, do we need to introduce ourselves on the Patreon only?
DL: Yeah, we do every time.
Krispin: Somebody stumbled in here.
DL: It's for us, Krispin. Not for them.
Krispin: Well, maybe it's for listeners to get both of our voices in the room. You're giving me-
DL: What?
Krispin: You know, like if I just talked on for a while, it's like, "Is this just Krispin?"
DL: Oh, okay.
Krispin: You know?
DL: I was trying to “yes, and” you, but my brain shorted out. I didn't know what you were going for. Okay. I'm here.
Krispin: That is half of podcasting, is “yes, and,” which I think is going to be a big thing today, because we just process things differently. So we're going to give some different perspectives on this topic.
DL: On what? What topic?
Krispin: Today we're talking about babies and high-control religion. Not necessarily the rate of babies born into high-control religion, which is high.
DL: It's pretty high.
Krispin: But just talking about what it's like to be a baby when you're raised in a high-control religion.
DL: Great.
Krispin: But first I want to introduce this series. We're looking at the developmental impacts of religious authoritarian parenting, or growing up in a high-control religion. So basically, if you grew up with parents that are trying to control you or fit you into a religious box, how does that impact how you grow up to be an adult?
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: We're going to be talking through these developmental stages. And this is actually in parallel with a book that we're writing together. So this is some of DL and I talking through what we want to go into different chapters, which I really need.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: DL, will you help me with all my scattered thoughts?
DL: I'll help you. Also, there are always different entry points for people who want to process the impact of religious authoritarian parenting methods, and this, I think, is a great entry point. It's interesting. We're going to go through the phases and stages in order here on Patreon and just talk through stuff.
And, like Krispin said, we want to hear from you, either in the Discord or you can email us at strongwilledproject@gmail.com. You can share your story, share your own experience. If you choose to do that, please let us know if you're fine with us possibly using it in our book. We'll change names, we'll do all that stuff.
But, you know, we've always said STRONGWILLED is sort of a collaborative project, and in the past few years, that has even proven to be more true, right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: So we're looking at these original texts, the parenting texts, looking at the sociological impacts, but Krispin is very interested in the developmental impacts, and also this bigger idea that maybe another way of talking about religious trauma is to think about it as a developmental trauma. Right?
Krispin: Yeah, totally. In fact, that's kind of where we're going to start, is talking through some of these terms. Because yeah, religious trauma is this really big thing that kind of spans...clergy sexual abuse is a clear example. Abusive pastors, church hurt. I hate that.
DL: Oh, I was, I was going to say, can we just slow down for a minute? And like the people listening to this, I'm wondering, when you hear the phrase religious trauma, what do you think of? Do you think of all these things Krispin just said? I know, Krispin, you have your own relationship to the phrase religious trauma.
Krispin: Right. Yeah. Yeah, I think that is a really good question. When you think about religious trauma, what comes to mind for you? And that's something that in the religious trauma space-
DL: There's a whole space?
Krispin: Yes. Of, like, religious trauma therapists, you know?
DL: Yeah. Yeah.
Krispin: There's a Facebook group, so if you're a religious trauma therapist and want to join, you can just look it up on Facebook, if you're still a Meta user like I am in some ways.
But yeah, it just is so broad, and I think so much of what gets attention is, you went to a church that had, like, power and control dynamics. And let's talk about that. And I think that there are actually two things that don't get a lot of attention. One is what we're talking about here, which is what it's like to actually grow up in it. And I'm not sure why that is.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: I think a lot because it has to do with talking about family and parents. And it's way easier psychologically to talk about a pastor that was abusive than having to think about, like, how did my parents raise me?
DL: Exactly.
Krispin: The other thing that doesn't get a lot of attention, I don't think, is the religious trauma of theology.
DL: Okay.
Krispin: And I think in some places that's getting bigger, but-
DL: Yeah, I was like, I see that a bit more than the growing up in it.
Krispin: That's true. But I do think that we're still continuing to process through that, like end times anxiety, hell anxiety, et cetera. But I also think that a lot of religious trauma resources are still within Christianity, so they're not able to dissect how the ideology is traumatic as much.
DL: Yeah. I think in general, we've always heard growing up American, middle class white Americans, right? The two things you don't want to talk about are politics and religion. And I think the, you know, the third one, the unspoken one, is unpacking your parents. Your family life. I'm like, ooh. So we are doing all three.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And you know?
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: That's what we do.
Krispin: Right. And so I think, like, even just looking at this idea of, do we use the term developmental trauma or developmental impacts? I think it’s interesting because for one, I like using the term developmental impacts because I think it's more accurate and, when we think about developmental trauma or when we think about trauma, we think about, like, emotional flashbacks or specific memories.
And I think that it is still traumatic, but when we think about impacts, it's thinking about, like, how it impacts how you function as a person.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Not, like, certain symptoms that come up in the day-to-day.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: I think it also allows kind of a spectrum because if you're listening to this, you are probably very likely, statistically, to minimize your trauma and minimize how traumatic this is.
DL: Oh, I'm glad you said that because even as you were talking, I was like, yeah, everybody wants to deflect and minimize. Like, that's just our defense mechanism, it's our coping mechanism, it's how we get by.
Krispin: And maybe some of that is me being a therapist, being like, here's an entry point for people that aren't ready to say this was traumatic yet.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: But they can say, "Yes, this had an impact on me."
DL: Oh, okay.
Krispin: Maybe. You know. Marlene Winell, who wrote, Leaving the Fold, calls them developmental delays.
DL: The impacts?
Krispin: Yes. Yeah. Uh-huh, yeah. Which is interesting. That's a very clinical term.
DL: I love it.
Krispin: Right, exactly. The other thing that I like about the idea of it being a developmental delay is that it was delayed, so you can still reach it.
DL: Exactly.
Krispin: You can be in your 30s or 40s and be like, "Oh, I was supposed to figure out my gender and sexuality on some level in my teen years, and I'm doing it delayed."
DL: Yeah, I think developmental delay is probably a phrase people need to sit with a bit too, you know what I mean? Especially if you don't really know what, quote-unquote, "normal childhood development" is. I think we're going to be unpacking that in this series, so that'll be stuff you learn just as you listen to this. And we're going to be putting in the book. So don't feel worried if you're like, "I don't even know what normal childhood development is..." Like, we'll go into all that because you've been interested in that for many years, actually. So yeah.
Krispin: Right. What do you think? We mentioned that piece of religious trauma versus the developmental impact. What do you think is unique about growing up in it rather than you know, joining a church that was controlling?
DL: Well, I think the most unique, I've learned this from you, the most unique thing is how vulnerable little children are. Does that make sense?
Krispin: Oh my gosh. I wouldn't have said it that way, and I think that's way more poignant than how I would've said it.
DL: Yeah, so I'm just like, what happens to you when you're a newborn really impacts you. What happens to you when you're a toddler really impacts you. No matter what kind of home you're in, it's really, really, really impacting. And that's, again, the thing we all want to minimize and all that because that's pretty hard to face.
Krispin: Right. Yeah.
DL: And I think the other thing is, before we spent multiple years reading all these parenting books, listening to the talks, all that, I had no clue how these developmental stages were targeted with really abusive parenting practices. So, I think all of that has radicalized me to be like, there's trauma no matter what when you are in a high control religion. Joining one is really different than being born into one.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And we're not doing this in, like, an oppression Olympics. We're just saying from that developmental framework.
Krispin: Right. Exactly, yeah. I totally agree. I did want to make a note, like what you said. I'm not wanting to compare trauma at all. But I think that it's interesting because a lot of religious trauma sort of stuff talks about how this group takes over your autonomy and how you give it up over time. And that's not our experience. Our experience is-
DL: Oh, we never had any to begin with.
Krispin: Exactly. And you never have a before to return to.
DL: Yeah. Right, right.
Krispin: Right. So yeah. I think that we need a lot of attention on this, which is why we're writing this book and thinking through these things. And like DL said, we're going to talk through what is normative development, and what research shows is healthy development and healthy parenting.
DL: Yeah. Can I say my one thing? As, as we're talking about all this, especially the developmental milestones and, you know, all of this was pretty well known when Dobson was first writing his parenting book. So I do want to say that as well.
Krispin: Right. Totally.
DL: This stuff has been known for what? Six-plus decades, seven decades, you know?
Krispin: Right. Yeah. Yeah. We're using... I'm generally using Erik Erikson's stuff, which you know, I'm aware of [the limitations of] white men writing in the '40s, '50s, and '60s. So I'm looking kind of through a more modern lens and filtering out things, so don't take it that I totally stand by everything Erikson says. But he's created these categories that I think really do speak to what kids need.
DL: And Dobson was aware of Erikson's work, so I just want to keep pointing that out, you know?
Krispin: Exactly. Yeah. Yes. I mean, yeah, Dobson literally says, "Scientific research is not the basis of how we should raise kids. We should raise them on the Bible." Which really was just his interpretation of what he thought was the best way to parent kids. He didn't even use the Bible that much, but we've already gone into that in the past.
DL: Well, exactly. Yeah.
Krispin: DL, what do you think your biggest developmental delay has been from growing up in this?
DL: Well, since today our first episode diving into this topic is about, like, birth and infancy, I think I'm going to answer according to that, because that's been on my mind knowing we were going to talk about this. So for me, one of the developmental delays I believe I have is just, I cannot express my true feelings to my parents. And I can't really express, like, anger or sadness. And I remember…obviously it's hard to know. It's hard to know how you were parented as an infant because we can't, you know, remember in our brain, although our body remembers unfortunately. The stories told about me as a baby were that I was incredibly colicky, very fussy, and then magically, like, overnight I became the perfect baby.
Krispin: Mm. Mm-hmm.
DL: Which to my mom and dad meant no crying, and no asking for needs. So then what's kinda sad is, my younger sister was the strong-willed child in my family, so they would say that about me.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And then they would say about her, she was the most cheerful, compliant baby, always giggling, always up, and then turned into a terror. You know? So we were sort of, like, seen as opposites.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And I never thought too much about that until the past few years, and I was like, what would make a baby go from crying all the time, needing a lot, to having zero needs? And I was like, "Oh, that's a baby who gave up on thinking anybody was ever going to come."
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And I think that unfortunately has some patterns that are still in my life about that. So, you know what I mean? It's hard. It's hard to talk about.
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: It's just hard to even think about. Like, that's not really a story you want told over and over again about yourself.
Krispin: Right. Yeah.
DL: And then there's always this pressure like, "Please remain the perfect child who has no needs." You know? I kind of felt that implicit threat in the constant telling of that story, so.
Krispin: Right. Yeah, totally. Yeah. I think for one, that's so interesting because people do have stories about being babies. I don't really have any, although I've-
DL: Oh, no, your mom told me a few.
Krispin: Really?
DL: Yeah. Remember you had a really hard time sleeping, so they had to drive you around all the time to fall asleep. So she told me, because our first child was incredibly colicky. And so that's what she told me. She's like, "You'd only nap in the car."
Krispin: Hmm. Interesting. Yeah, I don't know if she told me that. It was sort of like mother talk.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: You know how that happens.
DL: Mother to mother. Mother to mother.
Krispin: Right? I mean, I really do think that sort of happens in, like-
DL: I was going to say, I'm going to have a different perspective than you on this topic because I was in the trenches of reading all the books about babies. And you were just trying to earn enough income to pay our rent, you know? So, anyhoo.
Krispin: Right. Uh-huh. Yes. Right. Totally. And yeah, it's funny. I mean, I did do my deep dive on attachment. And you were reminding me of things that I've told you about attachment recently. It just purged from my brain apparently.
I think for me, I know I was a sensitive kid. I continue to be a sensitive person. and I continually come to grips with that.
DL: Yeah. I love it. You're like, "Danielle, I think I'm a sensitive person." Like, okay. Pretty sure we all know that. It's a good thing. It's not a bad thing.
Krispin: Right. And, I mean, that kind of relates to this topic of like, I was really I think just in so many ways expected to not take up space, to not have needs, you know, that sort of thing. And it's interesting because I was trying to put words around, like, what does it mean to not take up space?
And there's definitely this aspect of being socialized as female, sort of people pleasing, you know, trying to keep the peace. I don't do that. It probably doesn't look very much like I'm attuned to what other people need, but I just sort of like, get invisible in a way. Like, I don't need anything. Let me just kind of shut down. Like, let me kind of freeze a little bit, you know? And I think that's related to growing up and being like, "Yeah, don't reach out for your needs to be met," you know?
DL: Yeah. I think if, you know, we can just even start to dive into this a little bit, I think when it comes to the portrayal of infants and them needing to have no needs and, you know, all the stuff we're going to get into with sleep training and food schedules and all that, there isn't a huge gender divide. You know? There's one type of good baby, right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Right. Yes.
DL: The baby that can be on the schedule that suits the patriarch or the family, right? So I think that's also really interesting. Regardless of your gender, you needed to have no needs beyond, you know, a little bit.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.
DL: So I think that's also interesting.
Krispin: Right. Totally. And we're going to get into that infancy developmental stage, but before we go there, we actually need to talk about, what were the gestational philosophies.
DL: I love this. This is my shit.
Krispin: Right?
DL: Let’s get existential.
Krispin: Because, I mean, really, like even just thinking about pregnancy and thinking about the first year of a baby's life, like it's so mundane and concrete and, like, stressful, but it's just like, you're just like in the trenches, and you're not even really thinking too much about like, "How am I shaping this child?" You're just trying to survive. But I really believe that the beliefs about what it means to have a child, child rearing beliefs are really important to look at.
DL: Yeah, and it's not even just child rearing philosophies. It's like theology. That's why we continue to talk about this term we coined, “religious authoritarian parenting methods,” because the religion is really important to this.
Krispin: Right.
DL: If your religion says children are born inherently sinful, yeah that's going to impact how their child-rearing books talk about babies. You know what I mean? Like, it's so obvious, and yet it is so not discussed. I find it shocking.
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: And so even if you're listening to this right now, I think this is a huge thing to think about. Did your parents believe babies were inherently sinful when you were born? Because if they did, that 100% could impact how they parented, and so many of the Christian authors, I would say all of them that we've read, this was a core belief that they talked about a lot. Because this belief was essential to getting parents to discipline and control their children. You know what I mean?
Krispin: Right. Yeah. I want to call this section, “What religious authoritarians expect when they're expecting.”
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: You know? Like, even before the baby's born, there's just all of this expectation of what they can expect from their child, which is sinfulness and rebelliousness, before the kid's even born.
DL: And it's so sad. It's so sad. You know, fuck you, Augustine.
Krispin: Right. I was going to say, like, I want to mention, John MacArthur says, "The human heart is programmed for sin and selfishness. Every baby has the potential to become a monster." So we have John MacArthur saying that now.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: But it goes back to Augustine.
DL: Yeah. Right? And his belief that children inherit the sin of Adam, right? When they're born, and, you know, people like Dobson, they kind of couched it in some, you know, clinical language, but it's like, basically you have to discipline the sin out of your kids.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And using corporal punishment at 18 months, but what about before then, you know?
Krispin: Right.
DL: And I think this doctrine of original sin kinda trickles down into the way we talk about babies meeting needs. So, like, I know for me, I was called colicky, right? There's fussy, there's demanding, there's manipulative, there's-
Krispin: I mean, Dobson really leans into a lot of that stuff, and he doesn't...It's interesting, actually. My thinking about it was, like, well, he focuses so much on parenting toddlers, and he doesn't say a lot about how to parent an infant. But he talks about them a lot.
DL: Yeah because he could get sued, man.
Krispin: Yeah, right.
DL: That's why a lot of books that talk about infants and babies, they do a lot of dancing around it because-
Krispin: Which we'll talk about a little bit later with Baby-Wise and the American Pediatric Association stepping in.
DL: Yeah. Exactly.
Krispin: But Dobson did say these things about, like, babies come out of the womb, like... I mean, he talked about, like, different temperaments, but he really sets, like, what personifies babies in this way, making them seem rebellious and willful and, you know?
DL: It's fascinating. I don't know if this is, like, a good tangent to go down. But that's the way he talks about babies and toddlers and all this stuff, and it's the manipulative part that just kills me, you know? I just... It's like calling a kitten manipulative. Right. You know what I mean?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: But at the same time, in recent decades, as you know, they've gone all in on this anti-abortion stuff. And so they're always like, "Babies are perfect," or, they don't actually say that. They have to do this really weird dance of, like, babies are made in the image of God, and then, like, all these cute little babies. But I'm like, in everything else you're saying, you call them little monsters, tyrants, dictators, you know?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And so they're just not consistent at all. It's just about whatever fits their agenda, and unfortunately, their agenda when it comes to raising children is crush the ever-living spirit out of them and make them conform and make them obey. Again, so people like Dr. Dobson can have a less crying-filled evening, you know? That’s it!
Krispin: Right, yeah. Uh-huh. Right, totally. And as we'll talk about later, so that the man can have the sex that he deserves.
Krispin: Okay. I think about this metaphor that I think is a really helpful way to think about the implications of this doctrine of original sin. Yeah, you can think about kids as like plants that need to be nurtured and watered and supported, right? And you're kind of like, watching them grow up and seeing who they are going to be.
Or, you know, the religious authoritarians saw them as like clay that needs to be shaped and formed, or even like a bomb that needs to be diffused, right? Jenna Dewitt said a trophy is a good metaphor as well, right? So you're trying to like, you know, parent your kids in a way that makes you look really good. and so yeah, the whole project is like you are born broken and you need to be fixed or corrected, right?
DL: Yeah. I'm just... It's funny, with our two kids, I never had any of this.
Krispin: I know. Right?
DL: I never had any concept that I was really in control of much when it came to them. I mean, I wanted to keep them alive. I wanted to help them feel safe and secure, you know?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: But I was mostly focused on the alive thing and getting their needs met.
Krispin: Right. Yeah. Uh-huh.
DL: So this is all really like, I'm like, none of these apply to me. I never had any of that.
Krispin: Right. Well, I mean, and for this book, I've been diving into so much research around parental control, and just when parents have that approach of like, "I need to control my kid. I need to shape them. I need to make them into a certain person. I need to make them behave in certain ways."
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Rather than, you know, of course, I'm going to set limits on my kid. I'm going to support them and create structure for them. But just this control piece. And really the way that they explain it is you're sinful, children are sinful just like everyone. So you need to work on, you know, not being sinful or helping your kid not be sinful. But really they're just trying to form you into the things that are approved by the religion and try to not do the things that aren't, like making your own decisions, being queer, thinking for yourself, criticizing the religion, and disobeying.
DL: That's so true.
Krispin: Right? And I thought about it in terms of religious enmeshment. So enmeshment is where the family revolves around making sure one person is comfortable to the detriment of everyone else getting to be who they are, even if it causes them discomfort.
DL: That's the definition of enmeshment? Wow.
Krispin: Yes. So that usually is like a mother or father, right? You know, it could be like, you know, dad is really stressed out, so everybody needs to be quiet, right?
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And so you can't be upset, you can't be loud, you can't be playful, you know? Or it could be like mom really – not to be triggering – mom really cares about Christianity and Jesus and so everybody needs to fit into her vision of what it means to be a person, and we need to all orient our life around Christianity to make sure mom feels comfortable.
DL: Yeah. I mean, I think we're totally at a place in American history where everybody is sort of stuck in this, like, "Oh my God, my parents are in religious psychosis," and if you don't mirror that or join with them, it's really upsetting to them. You know?
Krispin: Right, and that's really it. I think about it in terms of enmeshment because enmeshment is really oriented around, like, I'm not going to do what I want to do or express what I want to express. I'm going to give up my own autonomy because I'm going to upset you, and then I'm going to feel guilty for upsetting you.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Right? It's not really like, "Oh, you're breaking the rules, so you're a bad person." It's more like, you're upsetting other people. You're being selfish. You're not being, you know, nice to others.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: I mean, I think about, like, when I was disciplined, my dad would always ask me, "What do you think Jesus feels about what you did?"
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Which is just sort of the definition of, like, enmeshment, is like, I'm going to-
DL: You better say something that reflects your dad's own, you know, how he feels.
Krispin: Right. Yes. Exactly, and that's really it, especially in the hands of a narcissistic parent, anything that bothers them gets moralized into Christianity. Right?
DL: Yeah, my mom and Jesus were indistinguishable. You know? On purpose.
Krispin: Exactly. Right.
DL: Not everyone who utilized these methods did it to that extreme, but that was the blueprint. You know?
Krispin: Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and so you get into this place of, like, I really need to shape and form into this thing that will make my parents happy / make God happy, right? And I'm disconnecting from the parts of myself that make them uncomfortable. And that could be of course, it's going to be like, "Oh, I'm interested in," you know, I think about being a teenager and, like, reading a book on paganism, and my mom was really uncomfortable with that. And I knew that, so then I didn't read it so she wouldn't be uncomfortable.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: But it could be I mean, yeah, it, it can look a lot of ways, you know? It could look like Jesus, maybe it's not this direct, but, like, Jesus wants you to be ladylike. But really, it's just, I'm uncomfortable with your gender expression. So I'm going to moralize it.
And yeah, I think the impacts of being told you're inherently sinful, we could talk forever about it. You can't trust yourself. You can't trust your emotions. You make yourself small. You doubt yourself all the time. You need to be controlled.
DL: I mean, what's so wild is, like, thinking about, you know, Augustine, and I don't care if I'm saying his name wrong. I hope I am.
Krispin: *singing* Augustine just woke up.
DL: I hope I'm saying it wrong because he deserves that. But, like, he believed original sin was transmitted through sex, through the act of conception.
Krispin: Through semen .
DL: Through the semen swimming up to the eggs. Which is insanity if you ask me. Just, sorry you hate yourself, bro. Don't put that on everybody throughout human history.
Krispin: That's like the tagline of every single theologian, right?
DL: Thank you. I'm sorry you have such weird feelings about your own penis because you've probably done horrible things. Thanks so much for writing this theology book. You know, I just, it makes me want to scream.
Krispin: Right. Uh-huh.
DL: But that's really what it is, and that's the sad thing. So I think if you have any inkling into how your parents viewed infants, that is something to process in therapy.
Krispin: Yes. Right. And I think that it starts with before baby is born, but it just travels all the way through.
DL: Exactly.
Krispin: Right? Up through, you know, adulthood, where that's still that same philosophy of like, if there's something that you're doing that makes me uncomfortable, it's evidence of your sin, and somebody should be holding you accountable to change it.
DL: Yeah, totally. And this is just talked about constantly in these communities. I mean, we use Dobson all the time. So churches that use Dobson books, no matter what flavor you are of Christianity, right? This is just in the air, and if you don't believe me, it's like, well, have a baby. And go to one of those churches, and the people will come out of the woodwork to tell you.
Krispin: Right. Yeah, they'll say things like, "You don't have to teach a baby to sin."
DL: Yep.
Krispin: But the baby is just doing developmentally normal things to get their needs met.
DL: Which has been demonized by these authors for political purposes. How fun is that? Okay, so we did the existential.
Krispin: Right. So yeah, let's jump into the first stage, which is trust versus mistrust. This is the first 18 months of life if we're going with Erikson. And this one, in a lot of ways, in my mind, is really simple. Because the baby's not doing that much. But the baby is learning, when I cry, when I'm hungry, or when I need to be held, will my needs be attuned to? Will my parents consistently show up for me?
And I want to put a caveat here that you don't have to…it's okay for babies to cry. Right?
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: It's not like every single moment of every day, if your baby's crying, there's a problem. But we're talking about what's in the normal realm of being attuned to and responsive to your baby. And so the baby during this time – and it's so interesting, I really struggle with understanding a lot of the developmental psychology, because they're like, "Babies aren't thinking thoughts but in their motor movements is how they're processing things.” And I'm never quite sure what that means.
But what it does is it's setting up the baby's nervous system to learn, "Can I relax because my needs will be met and I'll be okay? And I can trust others, and I can not be on guard." Or is the baby learning, "I'm on my own here."
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And that can have pretty big implications for the nervous system and how through the rest of your life, you know, do you feel like you can calm down easily and feel safe? Or is there this part of you that's like pre-verbal that's like, you kind of need to be on alert because you don't know when your next meal is coming or if your diaper will get changed when you cry, et cetera.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: So yeah. It's a big... And it's not that hard to do it well. I mean, it takes a lot of effort, but, you know, again, I just want to say, most parents are responsive to their kids. We're going to talk in a minute about how religious authoritarians were like, "Don't be responsive to your kids."
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: But it's just so natural, right, to be like, "My baby's crying," you know, "What do I do?"
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: But I know that you wanted to talk about the still face experiment.
DL: Yeah. Again, I think if, especially if you grew up American or again, you know, maybe it's just our experience in the RAP world, but I just haven't thought a lot about it. It's like trust versus mistrust. It's hard for me to know, what my experience was as an infant. Now again, I'd been told these stories about me, and then something else about my personal history, which again, it's worth it for everybody to do this. To think about birth order, how many other kids was your parent taking care of, all this stuff.
When I was six months old, my family was in a car accident and my older brother died in that car accident, and both of my parents were hospitalized for multiple weeks with broken legs and all that. I had to be taken care of by nuns for a few days before my grandparents could get there. I had an older sister who was three who also needed to be cared for, and then it was just a lot of recovery time for my parents. And I know my parents were incredibly depressed, especially my mom, you know?
And here I am, six months old, right? Which is a pretty formative time. And so I think only recently have I thought about, even taking outside the religious stuff, what's it like to be a baby with a caregiver who can't really take care of you because they're so traumatized and so depressed?
And so then one day you showed me this video.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And I think it's, again, you're going to have to correct me. I think it's something related to Erikson, right? Just looking at these developmental stages, but it's something called the still face experiment.
Krispin: Yeah. It's attachment related.
DL: Yeah. So I watched this video of it, and the video totally triggered me. How many years ago was this?
Krispin: Yeah. It was probably when I was right in the middle of my couples therapy training because I would show it to so many of my couples. So like 2019, 2018.
DL: Yeah. And I was so triggered. As I watched that video I was like, this happened to me. I know without a shadow of a doubt this happened to me. And basically what it is, is it has a baby crying, right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Like in a highchair. I don't know, you should take over and explain it.
Krispin: Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, basically it's a mom and an infant, and they're facing each other, and the mom's interacting with the baby and they're having a good time, and then the mom is instructed to just have a still face.
DL: Like a blank face.
Krispin: A blank face, just no emotion. And the baby tries to connect. It coos and starts pointing around the room to try to get Mom's attention to interact, and over the course of, like, minutes, the baby really freaks out and gets really upset.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And it just speaks to, when babies, when they're not attuned to, when they don't get that responsiveness they need, that it's really distressing to them. And of course there are times where baby's in a car seat and you are driving.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: But what the research shows is that there is a pretty clear line that babies need to be responded to enough of the time to get this sense of, "I'm not alone. I matter. It's okay to have needs. I can take up space in the world." You know?
DL: Yeah, and just having an adult caregiver attuned to them, I think that's what that video really showed me. It's like how even more distressing it was for the baby because the mom was right there. You know? And the mom was just blank face, and how it seemed to, like, terrify the baby after a while, right? The baby's trying, trying, trying, trying, trying, and then…it’s just so sad.
Krispin: Mm hmm. Yeah. Uh-huh.
DL: And I don't know, it just broke my heart.
Krispin: Right. Yeah.
DL: And I would just say, like, if people are interested, you can watch the video, but take care. If this happened to you all the time, you might have that knowing somewhere in your body. And for me, I was just thinking, "Oh, my mom was really depressed when I was six months old. I'm sure she had a flat affect for much of it."
But, you know, there's all these different reasons why that happened. So that was pretty upsetting to me to be like, "Oh, this attachment stuff is very impactful to babies."
Krispin: Right. Yeah. Oh my gosh, yeah. Yeah. And I think that just, like, gives a clear picture of what is recommended, which is showing up when your baby cries and figuring out what they need.
DL: Yeah. Enough of the time
Krispin: Enough of the time. Right, exactly.
DL: Again, we both have kids. We know that you cannot do it 100%.
Krispin: Right. And, you know, even with neurodivergent kids, there’s such variety, you know? Like, we went through a phase where our kids would cry, and it was like they actually needed to be left alone for-
DL: Oh, it was so hard with our first because they wanted to be left alone sometimes!
Krispin: Right. Yeah, it wasn't, “Cry it out.” It was like we were just trying to tune in, and it's like the more that we interact with you, the more upset you get. But if we leave you for like five minutes, you cry, and then you're calm and you fall asleep.
But that's us tuning in to what works best for you.
DL: Overstimulated little babies are so interesting, aren't they?
Krispin: Yes. Right. Yeah. But, yeah, basically you have these religious authoritarians that are like, "If you are following your baby's lead, that means that they are not submitting to your leadership and submitting to, you know, the system of the family."
DL: "And you're setting them up for a lifetime of rebellion, walking away from the faith and dying of drugs.” You know what I mean?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: They really do lay it on thick, man.
Krispin: Yes. Right. Exactly. And so I think Gary Ezzo, who wrote, Baby Wise, is the biggest example of this because he does this whole book, and it reads very medical, and he sort of co-wrote it with a doctor who then pulled his name after the American Pediatric Association was like, "This type of child-rearing leads to all these negative outcomes."
DL: I mean, this book was around when our kids were babies.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And I'm like, I feel like I flipped through it because, again, I was in the trenches.
Krispin: Yeah. There's diagrams in there. There's-
DL: Ohh the schedules. I was like, "I can't do this." Which is interesting because actually our baby was born two months early, so had to be in the NICU for a while, which was a very regimented schedule. It was interesting, where I was like, "This is not that." You know?
Krispin: Right. Yeah, exactly. And so, yeah, it reads as a very kind of clinical, like, okay, this is just medical advice.
DL: Oh yes. I definitely thought he was a doctor doctor.
Krispin: Yeah. But then you go to the beginning, because I was looking through it for our writing, and I was like, "There's just not a lot here, not a lot of quotables in the same way that Dobson does.”
But then I went to the beginning.
DL: Yeah?
Krispin: And he's like, basically, “We encourage you to – basically it's like putting kids on a eat schedule and a sleep schedule.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And he says things like, "It doesn't matter if the baby doesn't want to go down for a nap. When it's nap time, the baby goes down for a nap. It's that simple." So just this authoritarian parenting with infants.
DL: It's just that simple, Krispin.
Krispin: Right. And so yeah, think about Erikson, Erikson's saying that in order for kids to feel secure, they need to know that there is responsiveness, that a parent is tuned into them, that they're not alone.
Ezzo says that's not it.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Guess what helps a kid feel secure?
DL: What?
Krispin: A strong marriage.
DL: Oh. Where lots of wienering is happening?
Krispin: Yes.
DL: Okay.
Krispin: I mean, he literally says things like, I think this is like the best example. He says, “Babies have separation anxiety, but if mom is with dad, then little baby doesn't have separation anxiety.”
DL: Yeah. You're doing the best thing possible for that baby.
Krispin: Right. “Of all the baby's emotional needs, his most basic is knowing that mom and dad love each other.”
DL: No! No!
Krispin: That's what he says.
DL: He means the dad's having sex with the mom! Whoa.
Krispin: Yes! Yes, and also, I couldn't track this down, but someone mentioned to me recently that there are all these patterns in other books of Gary Ezzo’ss writing about him being very jealous of the baby.
DL: Oh, shit. But this happens to men.
Krispin: Yes, right.
DL: Ugh.
Krispin: And so again, your feelings about your penis, and you wrote a child-rearing book about it.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Yeah, I mean he literally says, "A child does not go through separation anxiety when his mommy is with daddy."
DL: What??
Krispin: Which is magical thinking! And he says start at two weeks old. So this magical thinking of this two-week-old baby is like, "Okay, my mom's not here. Oh, wait, she's with dad."
DL: She's with dad.
Krispin: "She's having sex with dad. I feel great. I feel secure."
DL: Oh my God, this reminds me of Dobson being like, "If you spank your child in a ritualized manner, there’s no ill impact." It's like you're just making this up.
Krispin: No, he says, "Here's the way to be the best parent you can be. Just continue on as you did before, before you had kids."
DL: Exactly.
Krispin: He literally says that.
DL: Yes. No, I remember that, and I...
Krispin: Here are the other things.
DL: Now, the Ezzos are the king and queen of sleep training materials. So that's why we're going hard for them.
Krispin: Right. Yes, exactly. The other reasons that babies should be put on a sleep schedule that fits the needs of the family rather than the needs of the baby, one is so that parents can continue to have their prayer time and read their Bibles.
DL: Oh, is that what they're calling it now?
Krispin: Uh-huh. And the other is having other families over for fellowship.
DL: Yeah. So just that middle class lifestyle, right? You have to invite your friends over. The mom needs to do all the cooking and cleaning for that, so, you know.
Krispin: And I feel like, I mean, this could vary between different people. And to be clear, I want to be sex positive, and I think that parents do need breaks from, you know, they need to figure out, how do I continue friendships, et cetera. But this to me reads as, like, narcissistic, like, I need my, you know, source. Like, I need other people to come over.
DL: Right.
Krispin: And I get to perform.
DL: And you don't want your life to be interrupted, you know, by the baby. I think what's interesting is a lot of people are shocked to learn that the Ezzos are Christian because the BabyWise books were not marketed as Christian books, but Growing Kids God's Way or, Growing God's Family was, which they also wrote.
Krispin: Right.
DL: So this is much more widespread than just the Christian world, honestly.
Krispin: Yeah, and looking at it, you wouldn't know.
DL: It's just the patriarchy, though. I think the overarching theme of BabyWise and these sleep and eating schedules is to get kids on the patriarchy train, right? Catering to the dad.
Krispin: Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I know that not everybody was raised on BabyWise, but I think it's such a good, terrible, horrific picture of this religious authoritarian saying, baby's needs need to fit into what is most convenient for patriarchal sex. But also to stay within their religion. And even this, it's not like hanging out with your friends, it's like fellowship with other believers, right? So it's keeping you in the cult.
DL: Yeah. Yeah, totally.
Krispin: Right? So yeah, I think it's a philosophy that probably a lot of people will resonate with, which is, like, your needs come second to the patriarchy, to the religious structure. You have to fit into the system. The system is not going to accommodate to you.
DL: Yeah. And so, like, for the last part of this, we're going to talk about those implications, but before we do that, I want to say a few things about the Ezzos because unlike Dobson, there is way more info out there about how problematic Ezzos are.
And so you can go to a website called ezzo.info. There's tons of research there, tons of work, because it's so dangerous to kids. Especially the feeding schedules. Kids have died, okay?
Krispin: Yeah, it's not like, oh, this isn't best practices. This is failure to thrive, cognitive delays.
DL: And so, from where they talk about the primary concerns on this website, it's under feeding advice, child development, theological, because, you know, Christians want to do that, and then there's just about the Ezzos as people. And that's what I want to say really quick. All right, do you want me to say this?
Krispin: I was so focused on, like, we have to talk about the developmental phases, but yes, we definitely need to go down the rabbit trail of the Ezzos.
DL: Well, well, well, guess who's estranged from all of their children and grandchildren? It's the Ezzos. They've been estranged for over 10 years from all of their kids.
Krispin: I did know that, and that's why when I read the, “fellowshipping with others,” I was like, that, that sounds like a narcissist who's sort of like, "I don't want to be alone with my kids and attuned to them. I want to put on a show for other families."
DL: And here's what I want to say. For people listening, they probably already stopped listening if they sleep trained their kids and feel guilty about it or whatever, but I'm like, you can always do repair work. You can always attune yourself to your adult children's needs and try to meet them there.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Right.
DL: And it's the people who refuse to do that who are going to end up estranged. You know what I mean? There's always time to become more attuned to your kid. Like, that's just a part of being a human and being a parent, being a caregiver, you know?
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: There's always that, but I'm like, oh my God. Everyone hates the Ezzos, including their own kids, except Christians. So now they're much more focused on just the Christian stuff because those are the communities that will pay them to come speak and- and use their materials. So that's all I wanted to say. You can go to ezzo.info, read all the concerns, and they actually have a lot of info there that you can share with other parents about why these methods are harmful and other alternatives, because I think that's really important.
The Ezzos did something that cults do, right? Which is they focused on a demographic. They focused on brand new parents.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Sleep deprived, brand new parents, right? And gave all these, like, self-assured statements. Kinda locked people into parenting this way. people who are very vulnerable, you know? So I also want to say that.
Krispin: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think there's also some scandals around him getting fired from churches and stuff, too.
DL: Oh, I’m sure. Yeah I had all that info in my brain, but I was like, "Ugh, it's too long already. We can't do this."
Krispin: Yeah. There's just, like, this long list of-
DL: Hey, a narcissistic guy has problems. Shocking.
Krispin: Right. Can't keep professional relationships.
DL: Uh-huh.
Krispin: Loses relationship with kids, et cetera. Yeah, but I think that this overall picture of religious authoritarian parenting is, like, if there's conflict between your needs and who you are and the system, it's because you're sinful. It's not like, oh, something needs to shift here. How can we change our family to meet the needs of the most vulnerable member?
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Right? It's like, no, you have to learn that you need to fit in this box. You need to fall in line. Yeah. starting with babies.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And I think for so many folks, that really resonates. And going back to the enmeshment part, the emotional component is like, if I upset the system, not only am I being shamed, but I'm upsetting my mom or dad or Jesus or, you know.
DL: Yeah. Becomes a way bigger deal. So yeah, Krispin, I wondered, for the end here, do you want to tell people what the long-term implications are of this first developmental phase of trust versus mistrust, if people, as infants, got the idea, "I can't actually trust my caregivers." What does that look like later on in life?
Krispin: Yeah. Yeah, definitely, because I think that's a lot of what we're focusing on in this series is, where did it start and what does it look like today?
One thing is not trusting your internal voice, right? So thinking about a baby crying. A baby crying means, "Hey, I need something."
DL: I need something.
Krispin: Right? And if you're parented in a way that's like, "No, you don't need that. You're just being rebellious," you're going to doubt your, your needs a lot.
DL: Interesting.
Krispin: I'm part of a WhatsApp group of religious trauma therapists, and we talk about stuff. And someone brought up interoception-related, so that like, can I tune into like, am I hungry?
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Do I need to use the bathroom? And she was like, "Yeah, you know, that also can be like neurodivergent stuff." But I thought that was really interesting, and I think that for so many folks, it's either like, "Oh, I have a need. I'm going to dismiss it," or people like me, where it's like I'm not even aware of what my need is.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: It's taken me a long time to realize, oh, this is what I need. I think along with that, meeting needs on your own, because you feel guilty about it.
So you know, I think a lot about...and this will come up throughout the series, but this theme around what is it like when you're at home alone? And for so many people, it's like, "Oh, I can do what I want. I can feel how I feel. I can think my own thoughts." And it's funny because we live together.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: We support each other, and I'm hoping if you're listening, maybe you're in a situation where it's like, yeah, I can watch what I want and do what I want when my partner is around. They don't care. But there's part of you that’s like, no, you have to hide that.
DL: Mm.
Krispin: You know? You have to keep it to yourself. I think just this general feeling of, “Don't take up space,” shows up so much with queerness and neurodivergence and not following the rules of the family religion. I think about going against white supremacy. Whatever it is that is upsetting to the system.
It can feel really hard. Your values might be, "Yeah, I care about these things," but something inside of you is like, "No, you're not allowed to upset the system. You should go with the flow. You should keep the peace," that sort of thing.
DL: Mm. Yeah.
Krispin: And then along those lines, when you upset others, it's not just like, "Oh, this person's uncomfortable. They have their own emotions." It's like you're upsetting the divine order.
DL: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think all of that's true. I think the whole thing about, like, you tend to try and meet your needs on your own. Like, this is just true for anyone who experienced parental neglect. And some of these sleep training, and some of these things, you know, it's, it's a form of parental neglect that's been, you know, said it's okay because God said it was okay.
And so if you have just decided it's so much easier for me to just meet every need, that makes a lot of sense, and it just sucks.
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: It sucks that that is, like, a developmental delay you might have. And I think it's a pretty common thing for CPTSD, so I'll also throw that out there. I just want to add for these impacts, not trusting your own internal voice or your needs, not asking others to help with your needs. Just feeling like, I have to go along with this system. I can't make waves or else something really bad will happen to me. And when you upset others, it's your fault, you know?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: I just think it's worth spending some time thinking about those and then thinking about, again, going back to what we said at the beginning, these family narratives you might have been told about yourself or your siblings or other kids, and thinking about if you were a strong-willed baby, how can you get back in touch with that? Because it's still a part of you.
Krispin: Uh-huh.
DL: If you were a compliant baby, spending some time grieving and honoring a baby who maybe didn't even get to express their needs. Doing some of this work to try and connect to who you are as an infant. I know it might feel weird and strange, but, like, why not?
Krispin: Yeah! Uh-huh.
DL: Why not spend some time thinking about this? Because these narratives that are put on us, especially about infancy, they're worth unpacking and worth sitting with. You know what I mean?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: I was the perfect child in my family until I wilded out in my 30s and left the faith. But I was a colicky baby, so it's an interesting thing. That's one of the few things I can cling to. It's like, I did have needs. I did.
Krispin: Right! Yeah.
DL: Just like every other human baby, you know? And just trying to get in touch with that I think has been really helpful for me.
Krispin: Yeah. Yeah. You said something there about, if I go against the system, something really bad is going to happen. And I think that's one of the biggest things, and something that is so hard when you come out of this, because it's hard to have these experiences where it's like, maybe I do upset someone else, but it's not an authoritarian system, so maybe they have feelings and then they come back and they're like, "I was kinda upset, I could see your point." Or, "I want to meet in the middle." And like I think for so many people just the idea of upsetting someone else is like, "Well, this isn't going to end well."
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Versus like, yeah, conflict happens and I might speak up and other people might have feelings about me speaking up, but that doesn't mean the end of the relationship or that I'm going to get punished. It just means that we're working through it.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: As a therapist, that's probably one of the biggest things I see with so many of my clients. And it goes back to negotiation. Were you allowed to negotiate growing up?
DL: Yeah, and I think we'll get more into that in the other developmental phases, you know what I mean? I'm sure we'll talk about that in toddlerhood especially.
Krispin: That's true, yeah. Mm-hmm. I know it's hard, like even writing this book, it's hard to be like, "Okay, what phase does this go in?" Because it's the same themes over and over at different developmental phases. And being a baby, talking about infancy is the weirdest one because it's just like, I don't remember, and I mean, other than like sleep training, it's hard to know exactly what happened, so.
DL: I like it. I like thinking about it. I think it's really important.
Krispin: Yeah. So this idea of taking up space and how we were trained to be as convenient as possible, what are ways that you're taking up space?
DL: Me, personally? I also think if you're listening along, take the chance to think about this question. Journal it. Do whatever.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. How do you want to take up space?
DL: How are you taking up space these days? For me, I mean, there's so many ways I'm doing this, but the thing that came to mind is just, you know, I'm 42, and just like being more comfortable in my body and just as my body changes, as I age, just taking up more space with it and not feeling bad about that.
It's no surprise to me that as religious authoritarians are in charge in our government, we're seeing the rise of body modification, like using weight loss drugs not as they're intended for people who need them for medical reasons, but to emaciate yourself.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: The heroin chic thing is back, you know? So part of me is like, "Ugh." It's honestly a great time to be chubby and take up space and, you know, I'm saying this as more of a mid-sized person, but just like literally physically taking up space. There's so much fat phobia in our society and in religious authoritarianism, it's so rampant.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
DL: And so I think it's also important if you have that inner critic, this inner voice always telling you this stuff, be like, "Oh, shit, that's coming from the worst people in the world." So maybe you're allowed to be in your body and have it be okay.
I think it's the same thing. If I dress more masc, I still have some hangups like, "Is everybody going to think I'm really ugly?" And it's like, "Well, I hope they do!" I don't care what they think about me. You know? So I don't know. I've, I've just been thinking about that.
Krispin: Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I think for me it's getting in touch with my needs and then being more direct with the people in my life, friends and colleagues. And that's not always like, "Oh, I need you to meet this need," but it's more kinda like, "Yeah, what is it that I need?" And then setting limits or boundaries. And knowing that me setting a limit or a boundary or sort of like breaking the, you know, making waves isn't going to be the end of it.
DL: Yeah. Exactly
Krispin: It's just part of the process. And that other people... I mean, there will be people out there that are not able to tolerate that, and that's good information to have.
DL: Exactly.
Krispin: But yeah, realizing that, like, this religious authoritarian system I grew up in is not the reality of most of the people that I'm in contact with, you know? They're wanting to figure things out with me as we figure out what works for both of us, so.
DL: Yeah. I love that.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Yeah. But yeah, thanks so much for coming along for this first episode of, we're going to call it Growing Up in the Fold.
DL: Growing Up in the Fold.
Krispin: And next time we'll be talking about toddlerhood, which is probably going to be the...
DL: Oh my God, buckle up
Krispin: I mean, y'all, I... So I'm writing these sections. For this section I wrote like 6,000 words, which is like a chunk of a book. That's like a 10th of a book.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: When I got to toddlerhood, I've written 16,000 words which is like a quarter of a book.
DL: Oh God. We're going to have to pare that down.
Krispin: I know. I was going to say, you're going to have to put your editor hat on and cut it down.
DL: Cut, cut, cut.
Krispin: But there is just so much. And, I mean, if you've been listening for long at all, you already know that toddlerhood and religious authoritarian parenting, there's just so much to say because they're such a crucial time.
So we'll be back with that soon. But in the meantime we'd love to hear any comments, questions. Always love your engagement. And you can reach out to us if you're like, "Hey, here's what this has looked like in my life. This is how it resonated." And, you know, let us know if you're open to us using that in a book.
Again, we would obscure details et cetera. But we also want to be really upfront about, like, we're not trying to just mine information and then use it. If you want to be a part of this process, that's great. If it's just for, like, personal processing, that's great too.
DL: And we probably will not respond. Just so you know, we do not have the capacity to respond to all these stories.
Krispin: Yes.
DL: So I also want to say thank you. If you're listening to this, that means you financially support us, and that just means the world to us. It's how we're able to do all of this work, so thank you so much. If you think that this miniseries is helpful to people, feel free to share it with friends and, and tell them to become a Patreon supporter, so they can access it too. So thank you so much to everyone, and we'll be back ready to talk about the terrible twos.
Krispin: We'll be back soon. Thanks, y'all.
DL: Bye.
